College educations, accessability, free money? free educations? *discussion within*

[6SpeedTA95]

I was listenting to the Senate earlier today discuss college educations and how to make sure the system is fixed. I was fairly pleased with what some of their "experts" had to say.

One lady went into great detail about how a 20k student debt at the end of college is not a problem and that getting government involved in those situations is futile. She also went on to say that students should NOT get a completely free ride. The also discussed how the current system penalizes greatly, students who work while in school and potential ways of fixing this issue. I found this to be particularly close to my heart because I worked my ass off and subsequently lost all government help

Both democrats and republicans seemed to take the dicussion seriously and listened to what the individuals had to say on the subject. She also mentioned how unions are drastically driving up prices in universities by controlling the prices of goods that universities use...aka chalk, markers, projectors, etc.


What do you guys think is wrong with our current college education system? How can we address or fix these issues?

[RMNIXON]

Imagine Unions driving up prices, even for poor students, never saw that coming!


As I see it student loans are an investment. If the responcilbilty to pay back the loan is enforced when enough income can support it I don't see the big problem? But anything the government runs seems to become a problem. Big hearts and "I don't care" lazy attitudes. Money and education gets wasted. My first act of reform would be to pull the rug from under the entire Union/Tenure Education Establishment. Once that Welfare State crumbles it would free up money for responsible student loan investment to be sure!

[DosEquis]

As long as they are cheap on the interest rate I have no issue with student loans. I think the problem comes from the costs of tuition, books, and supplies. If you do not get a scholarship or grant, it nearly forces you to do a cost benefit analysis on whether paying for school is worth it. My sister is going to school to be a medical assistant. They get about 10 bucks an hour here. School is going to cost about $20k. In a normal situation i would not spend 20 grand to get a 20k a year job. You can do telemarketing and make more than that, or be a head cashier at a grocery store and make that. However, since she is an idiot she recieved 9k in grants and it can be a possible gateway to other things in the nursing field.

Blaming unions is stupid.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

As long as they are cheap on the interest rate I have no issue with student loans. I think the problem comes from the costs of tuition, books, and supplies. If you do not get a scholarship or grant, it nearly forces you to do a cost benefit analysis on whether paying for school is worth it. My sister is going to school to be a medical assistant. They get about 10 bucks an hour here. School is going to cost about $20k. In a normal situation i would not spend 20 grand to get a 20k a year job. You can do telemarketing and make more than that, or be a head cashier at a grocery store and make that. However, since she is an idiot she recieved 9k in grants and it can be a possible gateway to other things in the nursing field.

Blaming unions is stupid.

No one casts all the blame on unions but ignoring their SIGNIFICANT contribution to rising education costs is stupid.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The also discussed how the current system penalizes greatly, students who work while in school and potential ways of fixing this issue. I found this to be particularly close to my heart because I worked my ass off and subsequently lost all government help

The kids that save money while in high school are completely screwed, FASFA expects them to spend all their savings AND parents contribute the normal amount

[motivez]

Yeah, FAFSA rewards people who are irresponsible and don't save, live beyond their means, etc, but also people who really don't have any meaningful savings.

I think GPA should play a part in how FAFSA calculates the EFC, perhaps mitigating a certain percentage of it, etc.. But I'm not sure how to do that fairly.

[RX Bandit]

A good private college education availability in the US seems to be skewed away from the white middle class. If you are poor and black every elite private school wants you for diversity (from what I saw personally at elite private universities). If you are rich and whatever race, you go where ever your SAT can take you and if your parents aren't nouveau riche you can go where they went regardless of SAT score. If you are white middle class you need to far outperform your peers not only to gain an acceptance but also to receive the very limited full paid merit scholarships. Your parents make just enough money to get by well but not enough to be able to pay $40k a year at Brown.

My measures of a good college education (because they are my only experience outside of taking a couple of classes at a large state school for fun) are:
private, ranked highly and consistently in national rankings, in the top quarter of endowments for research, faculty in your department that are in the top quarter of research publications in their field, and scientific equipment and a library for the liberal arts majors that in some way parallels the size and splendor of the university's football field.

So with that being said: in the free market system that private education is I would like to see it converted into a true meritocracy, not giving advantage to the people who cry woe for political correctness in giving a lesser qualified black person (less qualified than a white middle class person) a position.

We also need to work on bringing the average public university up in rigor of its programs (to make the graduates more competitive in the market place with diversified knowledge and a stronger quantitative base), diversification of its programs (compare MITs departments in the physical sciences to those of say, University of Houston).

I don't hate public education but I am not a fan of it in its current incarnation - if I had any privileges in hiring people (which I don't so you don't need to worry) I would give an instant unspoken advantage (like the unspoken advantage given to diversity...well unspoken since Gratz v Bollinger...) to a graduate of private university over public university.

[motivez]

I completely agree. I think diversity is good and fine, and an admirable quality to have in any educational setting, however when people are denied acceptance into schools because of what are essentially racial quotas that have to be met for the incoming class of 20xx, it's pretty ridiculous.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by motivez

I completely agree. I think diversity is good and fine, and an admirable quality to have in any educational setting, however when people are denied acceptance into schools because of what are essentially racial quotas that have to be met for the incoming class of 20xx, it's pretty ridiculous.

I agree.

[Pro Street]

Originally Posted by motivez

Yeah, FAFSA rewards people who are irresponsible and don't save, live beyond their means, etc, but also people who really don't have any meaningful savings.

I think GPA should play a part in how FAFSA calculates the EFC, perhaps mitigating a certain percentage of it, etc.. But I'm not sure how to do that fairly.

you need to maintain a 2.0 to keep FAFSA aid.

I was talking to a coworker today,, he's 20. He went 1 semester at WVU before he turned 18, and his father cut him off completely with any help. Since he doesn't qualify as independent he lost all aid, and couldn't afford the next semester, even with a PROMISE scholarship and another $1,000 one. He's now working a shit job alongside me.

On the other hand, my parents never saved for me. I knocked my current wife up at 17. Went into the USMC, ended up leaving. Can't re-enter the military now because I have 3 kids. I am in school, and doing it currently only off of FAFSA. I get the full amount because of my dependents and income (it's roughly $25,000 right now). I am a member of the Sigma Nu chapter of Phi Beta Kappa, and get some scholarship money for next semester, plus the HEAPS grant. I'll be able to be at WVU or another school while only working part time at the CATC.

Now, both of us want/wanted to go to school, I can afford it and he can't. This is crap in my opinion.

College should be available and affordable to ANYONE who has the desire to go.


College tuition rates have risen something to the tune of 4-5 times current inflation.

As to loans, I hear of many leaving with 40-50k in debt, but much of that is because they want to have the "college experience" and refuse to work even part-time.

Adult returning to school -- Need some help planning... - College Discussion

Here is a prime example, my posts are in there as well (JCampbell), you can see what I told him.

[6SpeedTA95]

Pro Street you raise some good points but I do not think college should be available for anyone who wants it. If you crapped out in high school my tax dollars should not be paid for you to get a college education utnil you prove you're responsible enough for it.

I do agree however that individuals that are legitimately trying should be given the opportunity but I also think loans are a part of that opportunity as opposed to a completely free ride.

[Pro Street]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Pro Street you raise some good points but I do not think college should be available for anyone who wants it. If you crapped out in high school my tax dollars should not be paid for you to get a college education utnil you prove you're responsible enough for it.

I do agree however that individuals that are legitimately trying should be given the opportunity but I also think loans are a part of that opportunity as opposed to a completely free ride.

I graduated school with a 1.8 GPA

that GPA in no way reflects my true abilities... it's a number that shows things that happened with my life my Junior year of high school... parents where were fucked up, gangs, and lots of drugs.

The only reason I graduated was because I got my shit together for my senior year. The 2 years in CC is where I've made my attempt to prove myself.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Pro Street

I graduated school with a 1.8 GPA

that GPA in no way reflects my true abilities... it's a number that shows things that happened with my life my Junior year of high school... parents where were fucked up, gangs, and lots of drugs.

The only reason I graduated was because I got my shit together for my senior year. The 2 years in CC is where I've made my attempt to prove myself.

Thats how it should work...you made some mistakes in HS, been to CC...now that you have proven yourself in CC I think you should have access to low interest loans and FAFSA to help you get through school.

[hsmith]

@ people bitching about $20,000 in student loan debt


if you want to go to college nothing is really stopping you

[IminWonderland]

I don't think there should be a price tag on knowllege. I don't believe that a certain segment of the population should be more privy to information because of money.

In my own perfect society, anyone who wanted to learn about anything would have that opportunity because education is about expanding your mind, not about turning a profit.

There are young people, who have bright minds, and have particular talents. There are people in our high schools right now, who have a light in them about a certain subject, and those people, should have every opportunity to expand that light.

What I don't like, is that the system we have set up, doesn't reflect the individual talent, it looks at a generic form of what a student "should" be, and rewards conformity instead of free thought.

Tests, numbers, and every other grading scale can only measure so much, there is alot left out. I believe we leave alot of potentially great minds behind because of money, fairness in admission, and a lack of acknowllegement of the individual.


Edit: Forgive the lack of Spell Check

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I don't think there should be a price tag on knowllege. I don't believe that a certain segment of the population should be more privy to information because of money.

In my own perfect society, anyone who wanted to learn about anything would have that opportunity because education is about expanding your mind, not about turning a profit.

There is certainly a price tag in gaining knowledge. An entire chain of hard work, talent, and perseverance. The actual public benefit cannot be measured. Funny people think that with their sense of good will they own that knowledge on behalf of the public and can just hand it out.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by hsmith

@ people bitching about $20,000 in student loan debt


if you want to go to college nothing is really stopping you

Thats basically what the three people I saw told the senate. They said 20k is manageable but the focus needs to be on those that are working while in school and that are from lower income households.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by hsmith

@ people bitching about $20,000 in student loan debt


if you want to go to college nothing is really stopping you

20 k isn't much true, but we've all seen college expenses go up at absurd rates. In a few years at college I've seen two separate 4-5 % tuition hikes and about a 20 % increase in dorm prices. I'd say in the near future to go to a decent state college you'll probably be looking at over 70 thousand. An education that 20 years ago would have cost 3 or 4 thousand.