New de-classified information shows Vietnam atrocities wide spread

Thorgrim · 08-06-2006, 04:05 PM

... Now, nearly 40 years later, declassified Army files show that Henry was telling the truth -- about the Feb. 8 killings and a series of other atrocities by the men of B Company.
The files are part of a once-secret archive, assembled by a Pentagon task force in the early 1970s, that shows that confirmed atrocities by U.S. forces in Vietnam were more extensive than was previously known.

The documents detail 320 alleged incidents that were substantiated by Army investigators -- not including the most notorious U.S. atrocity, the 1968 My Lai massacre.
. . .

Among the substantiated cases in the archive:

* Seven massacres from 1967 through 1971 in which at least 137 civilians died.

* Seventy-eight other attacks on noncombatants in which at least 57 were killed, 56 wounded and 15 sexually assaulted.

* One hundred forty-one instances in which U.S. soldiers tortured civilian detainees or prisoners of war with fists, sticks, bats, water or electric shock.

. . .

On Oct. 8, 1967, after a firefight near Chu Lai, members of his company spotted a 12-year-old boy out in a rainstorm. He was unarmed and clad only in shorts.

"Somebody caught him up on a hill, and they brought him down and the lieutenant asked who wanted to kill him," Henry told investigators.

Two volunteers stepped forward. One kicked the boy in the stomach. The other took him behind a rock and shot him, according to Henry's statement. They tossed his body in a river and reported him as an enemy combatant killed in action.

Three days later, B Company detained and beat an elderly man suspected of supporting the enemy. He had trouble keeping pace as the soldiers marched him up a steep hill.

"When I turned around, two men had him, one guy had his arms, one guy had his legs and they threw him off the hill onto a bunch of rocks," Henry's statement said.

On Oct. 15, some of the men took a break during a large-scale "search-and-destroy" operation. Henry said he overheard a lieutenant on the radio requesting permission to test-fire his weapon, and went to see what was happening.

He found two soldiers using a Vietnamese man for target practice, Henry said. They had discovered the victim sleeping in a hut and decided to kill him for sport.

"Everybody was taking pot shots at him, seeing how accurate they were," Henry said in his statement.

Back at base camp on Oct. 23, he said, members of the 1st Platoon told him they had ambushed five unarmed women and reported them as enemies killed in action. Later, members of another platoon told him they had seen the bodies.

. . .

The next morning, the men packed up their gear and continued their sweep of the countryside. Soldiers discovered an unarmed man hiding in a hole and suspected that he had supported the enemy the previous day. A soldier pushed the man in front of an armored personnel carrier, Henry said in his statement.

"They drove over him forward which didn't kill him because he was squirming around, so the APC backed over him again," Henry's statement said.

Then B Company entered a hamlet to question residents and search for weapons. That's where Henry set down his weapon and lighted a cigarette in the shelter of a hut.

A radio operator sat down next to him, and Henry was listening to the chatter. He heard the leader of the 3rd Platoon ask Reh for instructions on what to do with 19 civilians.

"The lieutenant asked the captain what should be done with them. The captain asked the lieutenant if he remembered the op order (operation order) that came down that morning and he repeated the order which was 'kill anything that moves,' " Henry said in his statement. "I was a little shook ... because I thought the lieutenant might do it."

Henry said he left the hut and walked toward Reh. He saw the captain pick up the phone again, and thought he might rescind the order.

Then soldiers pulled a naked woman of about 19 from a dwelling and brought her to where the other civilians were huddled, Henry said.

"She was thrown to the ground," he said in his statement. "The men around the civilians opened fire and all on automatic or at least it seemed all on automatic. It was over in a few seconds. There was a lot of blood and flesh and stuff flying around..."

"I looked around at some of my friends and they all just had blank looks on their faces.... The captain made an announcement to all the company, I forget exactly what it was, but it didn't concern the people who had just been killed. We picked up our stuff and moved on."

Abuses were not confined to a few rogue units, a Times review of the files found. They were uncovered in every Army division that operated in Vietnam.

Civilian Killings Went Unpunished - Los Angeles Times

We cannot truthfully embrace our country until we acknowledge the good ALONG WITH the bad

SpicyMcVoodoo · 08-06-2006, 04:19 PM

Why are you posting this? Do you hate America?

Thorgrim · 08-06-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Why are you posting this? Do you hate America?

care to elaborate?

the article is dated august 6th, 2006

I just checked...today is august 6th, 2006

ballz2wallz · 08-06-2006, 04:22 PM

we should charge those soldiers responsible for these vietnam atrocities and pull out now! let's free the vietnamese people from our occupation!

Thorgrim · 08-06-2006, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

we should charge those soldiers responsible for these vietnam atrocities

The statutue of limintations on war crimes never expires, so i'd be willing to entertain your idea of arresting those veterans currently in America

ballz2wallz · 08-06-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

The statutue of limintations on war crimes never expires, so i'd be willing to entertain your idea of arresting those veterans currently in America

as they begin wobbling in on crutches missing one leg or wheeling themselves in or just talking to themselves trying to find the right door to the courthouse...

SpicyMcVoodoo · 08-06-2006, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

as they begin wobbling in on crutches missing one leg or wheeling themselves in or just talking to themselves trying to find the right door to the courthouse...

Oh please, I guess per your logic we shouldn't pursue nazi war criminals either.

beez · 08-06-2006, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

as they begin wobbling in on crutches missing one leg or wheeling themselves in or just talking to themselves trying to find the right door to the courthouse...

Nah, they'd be doing a perp hobble with armed escort.

Nonphixion · 08-06-2006, 09:03 PM

This is amazing

motivez · 08-07-2006, 12:16 AM

It's pretty sad that this happened, but I wonder how much of it is due to conditions and stress over there?

I have a very hard time believing that these people are simply 'bad people', Id' wager that they snapped under the pressures that come with being in war and were too angry at various things to make a good judgement call.

We should prosecute anyone who commits a war crime though. We should always strive to be better than anyone we go to war with.

Kytro · 08-07-2006, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

I have a very hard time believing that these people are simply 'bad people', Id' wager that they snapped under the pressures that come with being in war and were too angry at various things to make a good judgement call.

A good example of the fundamental attribution error at work. People often (incorrectly) assume people's actions are government more by the sort of person they are than by environmental factors.

This is primarily because it's easy to judge soemone by a single action than by other actions they take.

TheMrs · 08-07-2006, 01:29 AM

People have denied that war crimes/atrocities happened in Vietnam? Really..? *thinking* I think people haven't so much denied it as it's never been "official", and now that it is?

Then I would say to those who want to *now* prosecute Vietnam vets for their part(s) in committing any war crimes/atrocities - that perhaps we should actively pursue the Viet Cong who did the same.

War is hell, it's been stated over and over and over again. YES - we get it. We know that man is capable of committing horrible acts in a time of war... got it... check.. roger that.... over - n- out! Yes, the Geneva Conventions is there for a reason and the reason is so that POW's are treated humanely. What I would like to know.. is exactly how humanely were our boys treated during Vietnam? NOT excusing it.. I'm asking. Because I would really love to hear how horrible the U.S. armed forces acted in Vietnam and how wonderfully hospitable the enemy was. Go on. I'm waiting.

So what do some of you suggest? Because please, please PLEASE let me know. Yes, Americans (MOST of us anyway) *do* accept the 'good with the bad'. For crying all night.

We have men and women who return from combat situations in military actions with PTSD - so someone explain to me how we American cannot accept the good and the bad. Do people honestly believe that you can throw a human being into a situation like that and have them come out of the same person?? Do people really think that a person isn't capable of totally snapping while in those conditions? Incredible amounts of stress during a combat situation/military action.... and YES, I think most people have enough common sense to realize that some people will do things that they normally would not do had they not been in that sort of situation. I sure as hell can't sit here and say what I would and would not have done... I know what I'd like to THINK I wouldn't be capable of.. but who the hell knows until you're in that situation?

Any human being is infalliable.... no, it's no excuse and I'm sure there are people serving in any one of the branches of the U.S. military that have a few bricks shy of a full load... but something I'm really tired of.. is painting the men and women of our armed forces with this same brush that seems to like to paint them as sicko killing machines. The actions of a few do NOT represent the whole.. that should go without saying, but apparently.. well... /shrug

Note I said HUMAN above and not American, please.. before someone says I'm making excuses for "our side". I'd like to see see anyone go into a situation where your ass is being shot at from you don't know where the hell.... and you're afraid to go to sleep at night because you're not sure if you'll wake up and then sit there from the comfort of your home and tell me how "environmental factors" play little to no role in someone losing their fucking mind when they are trying to avoid being offed.

So.. suggestions 30 freaking years AFTER the fact?

Semper Fi!

Thorgrim · 08-07-2006, 01:50 AM

Because I would really love to hear how horrible the U.S. armed forces acted in Vietnam and how wonderfully hospitable the enemy was.

I believe in a United States that sets a higher standard than the rest of the world, as we did in 1787 with our foundation, to do otherwise is to dishonor ourselves and our founding fathers

Thorgrim · 08-07-2006, 01:52 AM

As for the "few does not equal the many" and "30 years after" I would point out as before that most germans were not directly involved in the holocaust, in fact many nazis were not directly involved, however Germany accepted its guilt because the many should stop the few

We are a nation of laws, you can not murder someone and then say "oh its been 30 years" it does not matter, you have violated the law

Diesel66 · 08-07-2006, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

We are a nation of laws, you can not murder someone and then say "oh its been 30 years" it does not matter, you have violated the law

How long do we have to wait for the Vietnamese to persecute their war criminals ?

motivez · 08-07-2006, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

How long do we have to wait for the Vietnamese to persecute their war criminals ?

I think that goes again to holding ourselves to higher standards than other nations.

kinggovernor · 08-07-2006, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

As for the "few does not equal the many" and "30 years after" I would point out as before that most germans were not directly involved in the holocaust, in fact many nazis were not directly involved, however Germany accepted its guilt because the many should stop the few

We are a nation of laws, you can not murder someone and then say "oh its been 30 years" it does not matter, you have violated the law

lets get these guys + John Kerry and have them all charged

ballz2wallz · 08-07-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Oh please, I guess per your logic we shouldn't pursue nazi war criminals either.

in this day and age, i hardly think so. they're old and about to die. if we haven't gotten them by now, let them be.

motivez · 08-07-2006, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

in this day and age, i hardly think so. they're old and about to die. if we haven't gotten them by now, let them be.

I doubt many people who are still alive and suffered at the hands of the Nazi's would feel the same way about letting them be.

I think justice requires you never stop persuing people who commit or partake in such atrocious actions as the Nazi's did.

ballz2wallz · 08-07-2006, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

It's pretty sad that this happened, but I wonder how much of it is due to conditions and stress over there?

I have a very hard time believing that these people are simply 'bad people', Id' wager that they snapped under the pressures that come with being in war and were too angry at various things to make a good judgement call.

are you saying these same things about the people in iraq getting in trouble for murder and rape of iraqi civilians?