baby alive after only 22 weeks in womb

DosEquis · 02-20-2007, 04:05 PM

Earliest surviving preemie to stay in hospital - Kids & Parenting - MSNBC.com

I dont mean to beat the dead horse regarding abortion. I know we have hashed that out dozens, upon dozens of times. This is more about up until what point do we cut off the ability to get an abortion. I know some of you will say never, and thats fine.

This article has really made me sit back and think as to how far along I would allow for abortions to take place. It has also prompted me to really be for a ban against partial birth abortions, unless the mothers life is threatened. Most partial birth abortions take place around 24 weeks and this baby is living at 22 weeks. To me, at that point, i would consider it a life and consider it taking a life. It should be done away with and i would jump on the conservative bandwagon to go as far as calling it murder.

I am a pro-choice/anti-abortion person. I dont believe in using it for birth control, i wouldn't get one myself, but i dont think it should be illegal. I never really had a yes/no position on partial birth but after more information i can say that I am against it completely. So my dilemma is this. At what point do we call it off? 8 weeks? 10 weeks? 12 weeks? Personally I am thinking 8-10 weeks and anything past that would need special circumstances.

Phantom · 02-20-2007, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

So my dilemma is this. At what point do we call it off? 8 weeks? 10 weeks? 12 weeks? Personally I am thinking 8-10 weeks and anything past that would need special circumstances.

What happens between 8, 10 or 12 weeks and any other time that warrants a cutoff?

I don't know anything about the science of pregnancy/abortion

Dumpy Dooby · 02-20-2007, 04:34 PM

To be a technical and pedantic asshole, I'm going to take this moment to point out that it is life from the moment of conception. Scientifically speaking, it is life. There is absolutely no getting around that. Not only is it life, but it is human life.

Now whether or not that life should be supported is a different matter all together. But make no mistake, it is life no matter how old it is.

edit:
Tags: 22 weeks, abortion, fetus, new girlfriend, thorgrim, womb

wtf?

lew · 02-20-2007, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

To be a technical and pedantic asshole, I'm going to take this moment to point out that it is life from the moment of conception. Scientifically speaking, it is life. There is absolutely no getting around that. Not only is it life, but it is human life.

Now whether or not that life should be supported is a different matter all together. But make no mistake, it is life no matter how old it is.

You're sounding more and more like a Christian everyday.

Donkey® · 02-20-2007, 04:54 PM

When you can take that "life" out of the womb and it can live on its own under its own power...then it is a life.

motivez · 02-20-2007, 04:54 PM

Actually, whether it's 'life' is hardly certain. That little fact is at the center of the debate surrounding abortion, and a statement that it is life is not definitive.

It has the potential to be a life, but it's still just that, potential.

Now, moving forward into certain weeks of the pregnancy, it becomes more and more difficult to deny that it is a life, especially if it's viable on it's own (and that includes medical help)..

motivez · 02-20-2007, 04:58 PM

My personal view is that I've never liked abortion and I've always thought it's a horrible procedure. I'd never encourage or pressure anyone I was with to have one.

But, on the other side of that coin, I don't consider myself in a position to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their pregnancy and their body, just like I don't feel like I'm in a position to tell them what is morally acceptable as far as sex or other life choices.

It's not up to me, and so I'm for people making their own choices without trying to impose my own world view and moral compass on them.

I'm not sure the technology is available right now to point to a specific point in gestation and say well, that's exactly when it becomes a life, a viable and independent being.. so as far as new restrictions on weeks, I don't think there's any kind of system in place for determining it.

lew · 02-20-2007, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

When you can take that "life" out of the womb and it can live on its own under its own power...then it is a life.

That is no definition of life.

Nothing can live on its own under its own power.

When you can do that, let me know.

Donkey® · 02-20-2007, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by lew

That is no definition of life.

Nothing can live on its own under its own power.

When you can do that, let me know.

I walk, I talk, I take breaths. I think I am good. Thanks.

lew · 02-20-2007, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I walk, I talk, I take breaths. I think I am good. Thanks.

You do all of that all by yourself?

There is zero other biological life in you? No bacteria at all? No micro organisms?

If the definition of life is "to be able to function without any support" as you suggest, then none of us have life.

Donkey® · 02-20-2007, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by lew

You do all of that all by yourself?

There is zero other biological life in you? No bacteria at all? No micro organisms?

If the definition of life is "to be able to function without any support" as you suggest, then none of us have life.

Ok. I'll restate my opinion then...if you can not take a "baby" out of the womb and it can't live on it's own, it's not old enough to be called a real "life." If they now have one that is 22 weeks old living out of the womb...then that's the limit for abortion as far as I am concerned.

lew · 02-20-2007, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Ok. I'll restate my opinion then...if you can not take a "baby" out of the womb and it can't live on it's own, it's not old enough to be called a real "life." If they now have one that is 22 weeks old living out of the womb...then that's the limit for abortion as far as I am concerned.

But a baby never can live on it's own, not until they're a couple years old.

Donkey® · 02-20-2007, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by lew

But a baby never can live on it's own, not until they're a couple years old.

Let's get semantic now. I don't want to play your game.

motivez · 02-20-2007, 05:32 PM

We all know Donkey means an inability to survive out of the womb.. Semantics ftl

tbone · 02-20-2007, 05:42 PM

A single celled organism is technically life, yes. But it has no ability to think at a higher level, nor feel pain, so conception is not life as we know it. Life as we know it or can even fathom it begins much later, when....I don't know.

DosEquis · 02-20-2007, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

To be a technical and pedantic asshole, I'm going to take this moment to point out that it is life from the moment of conception. Scientifically speaking, it is life. There is absolutely no getting around that. Not only is it life, but it is human life.

Now whether or not that life should be supported is a different matter all together. But make no mistake, it is life no matter how old it is.

edit:
Tags: 22 weeks, abortion, fetus, new girlfriend, thorgrim, womb

wtf?

At some point it is simply a cluster of cells. Sure those can develop into a human being at some point down the road. At that specific point it is still not a human being.

Sperm moves, has a purpose, has a mission, and knows enough to just swim until it runs into something it can burrow into. It by all means is also a life as it is a living cell. I am talking of human life, one that can be removed from a womb..hooked up to some machines like the baby at 22 weeks and actually live.

i agree with Donkey and Motivez for the most part. Though in Donkeys case he says cut off at 22 weeks. Personally i think 20 weeks is even to long. In theory there is still a possibility at 20 weeks it could even survive like this one at 22 weeks.

So with that I am thinking 10 weeks. If you can't figure out what to do with it in 2 1/2 months then to bad unless some special circumstance comes up.

Donkey® · 02-20-2007, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

At some point it is simply a cluster of cells. Sure those can develop into a human being at some point down the road. At that specific point it is still not a human being.

Sperm moves, has a purpose, has a mission, and knows enough to just swim until it runs into something it can burrow into. It by all means is also a life as it is a living cell. I am talking of human life, one that can be removed from a womb..hooked up to some machines like the baby at 22 weeks and actually live.

i agree with Donkey and Motivez for the most part. Though in Donkeys case he says cut off at 22 weeks. Personally i think 20 weeks is even to long. In theory there is still a possibility at 20 weeks it could even survive like this one at 22 weeks.

So with that I am thinking 10 weeks. If you can't figure out what to do with it in 2 1/2 months then to bad unless some special circumstance comes up.

Well, I am also keeping in mind the fact that is can't be pleasant for a baby to be alive in pain if it's too early.

Dumpy Dooby · 02-20-2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Actually, whether it's 'life' is hardly certain. That little fact is at the center of the debate surrounding abortion, and a statement that it is life is not definitive.

Yes, it is. The thing at the center of the debate is whether or not that life should be considered important enough to stay alive. An insect, for example, is alive. But I don't really care if I kill one. Likewise, a zygote is alive, but I don't really care if I kill it. It's not important to me. I've always been a huge advocate for "pro choice," as the dichotomics term it, and I've always been the first to admit that I'm even okay with "farming" zygotes for embryonic stem cell research.

From a libertarian standpoint, I see no problem with taking away the fetus's support from the mother. The mother owns her own body, and should not have to be a slave to anybody, including her child. As immoral and unethical I think she is for not electing to support her child, I don't think she should be obligated by coercion to adhere to my moral code.

It has the potential to be a life, but it's still just that, potential.

NO!

Scientifically, it is life. Plain and simple. If we're going by the scientific definition of life, it is life. Can it reproduce? Can it metabolize? If it is not life, then is it dead? If neither, are you suggesting that humans create life from inorganic compounds?

People really need to think this stuff through. Yes, it is life. Cells are life. Cell theory is where the biological definition of life can be found. Viruses are not alive. Why? Partly because viruses don't have cells. Have you heard of "living" cells? "Dead" cells? What do you think that's talking about? Do you suppose that's talking about cells that can maybe potentially live? Again, people really need to think this through. It is life. Plain and simple.

Now, moving forward into certain weeks of the pregnancy, it becomes more and more difficult to deny that it is a life, especially if it's viable on it's own (and that includes medical help)..

Semen is alive, just as an egg is alive. When they get together, the offspring is alive. It's all part of the reproductive process. If at any point in that process you think something "dies," then what is it that ultimately causes the cells to revive and give birth to a live baby? Magic? God?

You'd be right if you replaced "life" with "complex life" or a similar term. I'll definitely concede that the point at which it becomes "complex life" is highly debatable.

Dumpy Dooby · 02-20-2007, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

When you can take that "life" out of the womb and it can live on its own under its own power...then it is a life.

It's always alive. You're talking about when it's cool to kill it or not. I agree that birth is a good place to draw the line. After that, the infant is living on its own accord. It's still dependent on others for food and whatnot, but the mother can elect to put it up for adoption at any time.

Kytro · 02-20-2007, 07:29 PM

I agree it is alive, and it is human - when it becomes a person or something that people value varies depending on your stance