Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 To Donkey: Of course I read the whole thread. It was really big right? And saying a post I made is useless just shows how ignorant you are. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it useless. This is an OPINION thread is it ...
08-24-2007, 04:33 PM
| #21 | ||||
| Political Genius  Republican Yorba Linda Ca. 
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Not all "opinions" are equally welcome on this board. 
 As for your exit strategy suggestion don't hold your breath. When a party trades critics for leadership you get more critics. As I see the current Democrat plan is pullout and have a definite bloody Civil War we can blame of Bush. Republicans can keep the surge and political efforts going to prevent that outcome. I am not saying any result is certain. The leadership is in trying. 
__________________ Sock It To Me! "Bureaucracy is a Parasite that Preys on Free Thought and Suffocates Free Spirit!" - Douglas Adams | ||||
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08-24-2007, 04:40 PM
| #22 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by RMNIXON Well, that's a lie. All opinions are welcome, and since conservatives outnumber liberals on this board, your suggestion is even more ludicrous.
Originally Posted by RMNIXON It's Bush's war, he should have had an exit strategy before going in. He didn't. He didn't plan for post-invasion at all, that's a simple fact.
The fact that you're complaining about a Democratic attempt to micro manage the war while simultaneously bashing them for not trying to micro manage an exit strategy is laughably partisan, and remarkably inconsistent logically. | ||||
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08-24-2007, 07:40 PM
| #23 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| Yes, its quite obvious not all opinions are welcome on this board, as evidenced by certain people's asinine comments. Lets get one thing straight here: I don't support everything the President has done-in regards to many things. However, many people on this board subscribe to the incorrect assumption that he is to blame for every single thing that happens in this country, and by proxy, the world. No one man is responsible for these problems. Maybe Bush did appoint the wrong people to certain positions. Maybe he did other things wrong. Isn't this human nature? Who on this board can say they have never screwed up? You're a liar. I said it in jest, but its true that if people could find some way to blame Bush for "Global Warming" they certainly would. I guess its also human nature to have to have somebody to blame for everything. To motivez: Its not "Bush's war" since no president can go to war without a majority of the House and Senate vote. Are you trying to imply that we did? And what about the Democratic majority for the last couple of years? Why have they done nothing about the war but spew partisan rhetoric? Because they know deep down its the right thing to be there. I agree with you that an exit strategy has not been thought of. Or if it has it certainly hasn't been implemented properly. Do you honestly think I like going to the desert for a few months? No thanks. Its not very fun over there. So if you for one minute seem to think I am not fully invested in the outcome of this war think again. Maybe thats what some people on this thread need to start doing. Start thinking about what you are saying. Maybe Bush planned 9/11? Is that the next thing to come out of some of your mouths? I am not bashing anybody here. I am trying to get us thinking logically about what we are saying these days. I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I will admit however that most of my positions are Republican. No more meaningless posts please. Think about what you are saying here! | ||||
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08-24-2007, 07:55 PM
| #24 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Seems like you're pulling that from no where, people simply lay the deserved chunk of the blame at Bush's feet for his decision to take us into Iraq, his failure to make his subordinates adequately plan for the aftermath, and so on and so forth.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Again, where did anyone suggest Bush is SOLELY to blame? You keep making assertions like it's some standard held opinion on this board, but I've yet to see anyone actually express it.
Straw men arguments are often fun, but they're easily recognized. The difference between someone on this board's screwups and someone like Bush's screwups are huge.. I'd doubt anyone ever made a bad decision which cost the country so much. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 If you read my post, I have laid the blame squarely at the feet of those who are responsible, including Democrats and Republicans who voted for it, succumbed to fear mongering by this Administration, and so on and so forth.
I completely disagree that they think it's the right thing to be there, war should always be a last resort, and never taken as lightly without thoughts of the consequences or adequate planning like was done here. I respect your service, I don't think anyone has claimed it's fun, and I think while you certainly have a more immediate investment in what goes on there, ultimately the outcome of Iraq and what happens to the region is going to affect us all. As far as the 9/11 thing, I wont even spend any time on that red herring. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Intelligent people can disagree on important topics.
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08-24-2007, 08:17 PM
| #25 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| I totally agree with your last comment. It is the pointless one-liners that irk me. Anyways, what I was saying in the beginning rings true. People blame Bush for way more than he deserves to be. I have yet to see anyone actually realize the fact that the President alone did not bring us into this war-or keep us in it. Yes of course he has advocated that position, but he has checks and balances of his own. Are you implying that our system of government has failed? I don't believe you! Just kidding of course because our government is certainly the most screwed up of everything. I should know since I am actually in the military! How many times have my orders/household goods/pay issues/etc been screwed up? I wouldn't even tell this board everything because I would be embarrassed. Suffice to say the government is extremely screwed up and can hardly ever get anything right. And yes, I have seen MANY people say Bush is solely to blame. Or so close that it wouldn't matter. I'm surprised you haven't. Where is the fear mongering? If anyone has done that it has been the media who choose to show only the worst of what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. OF COURSE people think the war is going badly when ALL you see on the "news" is another car bombing or a helicopter crash. Do you realize-established fact-that the Air Force which I am a part of-has lost more people here in the states to various accidents etc than in Iraq? I am certainly not condoning ANY loss of lives of ours, especially since it could be me next. And yes I realize the Army has a higher mortality rate than we do. Point here is trying to put everything in perspective. | ||||
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08-24-2007, 08:19 PM
| #26 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| Oh yes, and I wanted to say that I respect your positions and the way you come across. You seem intelligent and I enjoy intelligent and logical debate, so thank you for that. | ||||
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08-24-2007, 09:38 PM
| #27 | ||||
| Banned  Socialist Maryland
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Like it or not, some people's positions deserve nothing more than one liners in response. Has nothing to do with intelligence or bashing.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
People blame Bush because he is the President of the United States...The Commander in Chief. NOBODY here has said "OMG IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!" Haven't seen that once. You're new and I find it offensive you're making these assumptions about people that have been here longer than a day. The widely expressed position is that Bush is to blame ALONG WITH his administration, Congress, CIA, Cheney, the Right Wing propaganda machine, fearmongerers... I am sure there are more. What you're failing to realize is that Bush gets a larger amount of blame than any other person singled out because it is HIS administration. HIS appointments. HIS policies. It was HIM on the TV making these stupid completely INCORRECT statements about Saddam and Al Qaeda....about Saddam and WMDs...about them "hating us for our freedom." The list goes on and on. He has not only fucked up Iraq...he has done nothing positive for this country during his presidency. Nothing. ALL of his policies have been complete failures. That's why we attack him. He is the worst president of my time. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 I am sorry those people exist that blame Bush for every little thing. Those are what we call idiots. They know nothing of politics and how this country works. Don't come in here rambling about those people being us. Treat us like idiots, you get treated like one.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
Most of us on here know this. But some of us realize that every time Bush gets on TV and talks about "they'll follow us home" and "Iran wants nukes" that is fearmongering. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
Not sure where this is relevant to the discussion. We have perspective of the situation...I think you don't have perspective of what goes on in this forum because you're new. Stop sterotyping us based on what you have "seen" in the "real world." | ||||
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08-24-2007, 11:15 PM
| #28 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| I did say POINTLESS one liners dude. You need to get a grip. I don't care if you find it offensive what I have been saying. Most people do find things offensive they don't agree with. And so what if I just joined this website. What does that mean? Means nothing. Don't get me started on Saddam and Al-qaeda. Let me guess? He was a good samaritan and never had any WMD's? Your ignorance is astounding. And Al-Qaeda must be a charity organization? As for being the worst president, try again. Clinton made us a laughingstock. And you must be poor right because Bush has certainly not done anything for this economy right? I haven't treated you like an idiot. Maybe I should when you make statements like that one. Both of what you said is true, so how is that fear-mongering? People don't want to hear the truth. Iran IS GETTING NUKES. And if 9/11 didn't teach you that terrorists will kill us here at home then I guess you need something more drastic to happen? Do you choose to be ignorant or did God make you that way? Again you bring up the pointless assertion that I am new to this forum. What difference does that make? As if somehow that makes my opinion not count? I did not stereotype ANYONE. And who is "us" anyways? You seem to be the only one on here who can't make a logical argument. Just because you don't care what I have "seen in the real world" doesn't make it irrelevant. | ||||
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08-24-2007, 11:19 PM
| #29 | ||||
| Braccae tuae aperiuntur.  Reform Party NJ
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Enough of the back and forth attacks.
Please familiarize yourself with the rules and keep dicussion on the topic and not other posters please. http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules
__________________ No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair. Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid: As we look back in history, the Founding Fathers would be cringing to hear people talking about eliminating earmarks. | ||||
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08-24-2007, 11:29 PM
| #30 | ||||
| Banned Socialist Maryland
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 You are speaking about the left wingers on here without actually knowing what they have even said. It's pretty retarded and it does mean something.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Address the issue. Where are the links? Where is the proof? You want to discuss the issues, start with this one.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
Nobody said he was a good person. Is that a reason for invading a country? Know how many people that aren't good are running countries? Should we invade them all? As far as WMDs, again, let's address the issue. Provide proof, links, anything. We'll see where the ignorance lies. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
No, they are not. They attacked us and we should hunt them down. That has nothing to do with Iraq. Address the issues. You have proof? Links? Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
He has done nothing. Period. I am not really sure why you say Clinton made us a laughingstock? The Right Wing made us a laughingstock by attacking him for his personal affairs. Most countries in the world don't do shit like that. My monetary situation has nothing to do with Bush. I am not rich so his tax cuts did nothing for me. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 When you came in here spouting off about not being able to voice your opinion and attacking the left leaning members (keep in mind you have no idea who they are or where they stand on the issues) that is treating us like idiots.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Again, calling me ignorant. You said you want to discuss issues yet you attack people? You'll last long here. Anyway, addressing your "points." Proof Iran is getting nukes? Links? Evidence? And what 9/11 has to do with the statement "they'll follow us home" I have no idea...so i'll ignore it because it's pointless.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
What? Where are you getting this nonsense? You came in with absolutely zero posts and started claiming this forum and the people in it attack opinions they don't agree with. The people in this forum don't like to hear opinions they don't agree with. You couldn't be more wrong and misinformed. Period. You took what you have seen in the real world and applied it here without knowing jack shit about this place. That makes it irrelevant. | ||||
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08-25-2007, 01:05 PM
| #31 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| Well, I guess the guy who tried posting on me about the rules should have done the same to you huh? Where in the world do I start on this one? I will try to keep it civil now although you haven't. Calling me retarded? This is an attack. I will ignore it. Also implying I did not read what others have said? Falsehood. Get the assertions straight at least. I have debated one other person on here already even though I am somehow new and don't know much. It was very civil. We agreed to disagree and that was that. So again, get your facts straight. You ask for proof about Saddam and Al-Qaeda? Are you serious? There is so much proof its ridiculous. I have seen it with my own eyes. Why should I need links and proof when its common sense? And if you want to start another thread about either of these 2 subjects I would certainly be willing to debate them with you. You brought up Saddam so I will respond. While he CERTAINLY had WMD's for a multitude of reasons I won't go into right now. There are a ton of other reasons we should have invaded Iraq. Starting with his genocide of his own people which is undisputed fact. Although you probably need proof or a link right? Even though it has been plastered all over the news? You speak of Clinton but did you realize he could have ended Al-Qaeda long ago with a well-aimed cruise missile salvo which he chose not to fire? He also brought us into Yugoslavia and Somalia all while screwing around on his wife. Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq? Hello? Who do you think is over there killing my friends right now? Bush has done nothing for this country? You mean besides saving you from terrorist attacks? You think I make money being in the military? I don't. As far as I know his tax cuts helped everyone. And since the economy IS BOOMING how do you explain that one? You blame the bad things on him yet you conveniently gloss over the facts? Not cool. I treated nobody like an idiot. When people say dumb things they should be called out for it. I didn't "attack" left leaning members either. In fact, I didn't attack anyone besides you. I do apologize I sometimes do get a little heated when people don't think logically. Stop saying "us" when the truth is its just you. About Iran getting nukes:again comon sense. Not only common sense in this case because the president Ahmedinejad or however you spell it HAS SAID HE IS TRYING TO GET THEM! No dispute there! From anyone but you obviously. He has also said he wants to kill every American. Do you care about that at all? Do yoy not think he will send his terrorists here? Oh ya and 9/11 is when THEY DID follow us here! Hello? This is all common sense and logical thinking. So again you assert that what I am saying is irrelevant. Real nice. I guess free speech is dead in some parts of the country. And you totally disregard everything I say because I am new? This is unbelievable! And yes, its also common sense that nobody likes to hear opinions they don't agree with. Its human nature to try to CORRECT other peoples perceived incorrect opinions. Otherwise why would we do this? | ||||
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08-25-2007, 01:14 PM
| #32 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| Oh ya and what do I need to know about before I post on this website? Its not rocket science. | ||||
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08-25-2007, 01:28 PM
| #33 | ||||
| Banned Socialist Maryland
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
I know the rules. I haven't broken them. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
I am not the only one who has seen this. The mods warned you for a reason. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Ha ha. Common sense? Great evidence. You're slowly rendering all your opinions obsolete.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
But, but Clinton!!! I knew it was only a matter of time till that one came from you. And again, you claim he "certainly" had WMDs...but you don't provide a lick of proof. All you've done thus far in this thread is throw your uninformed opinions around. When are you going to start posting something using some real evidence? Your opinion and party line isn't evidence. Taking what you said, "genocide" was your reasoning for going into Iraq yet genocide has happened in many places where we didn't invade. Why not? Why did we just go after Saddam and nobody else? And it's funny that you turn right around and attack Clinton for going into two countries where genocide and senseless killing was taking place. Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Sunnis, Shiites, Al Qaeda are over there attacking your friends. That doesn't change the fact that Al Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq BEFORE we invaded. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it...though I won't hold my breath because I know you'll just throw out your uninformed opinions.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 Wow. There's so much wrong with this paragraph I don't know where to start. Explain to me how Bush has saved me from terrorist attacks? And when you say that, you do realize how hypocritical you're being, right? You say "OMG YOU CAN'T BLAME BUSH FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE ISN'T RESPONSIBLE!!" but you can't sit there and give him credit for shit he isn't responsible for either. (and I would like to see where he's saved me from attacks still.) His tax cuts did not help everyone. That's a fact. The economy is booming? Have you even seen the news? Do you read the newspaper? Since you claim the economy is booming, please provide some proof. Evidence. Something. We blame the bad things on him because he is the one responsible. He has made horrible decisions. Horrible appointments. I would love to hear what you see as being his legacy once he leaves office. What do you think he'll be remembered for? What has he added to this country? How has he benefited this country? ANYTHING concrete backed up with FACTS and EVIDENCE would be great to see.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
It isn't just me. I have seen two moderators address you about it. They did that for no reason? Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 No...he has not said he is trying to get them. AGAIN, please provide a link to said comment. Please provide any evidence Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. Please provide any evidence Iran has the capability to build weapons. "He wants to kill every American." I am sorry, that is a fucking stupid thing to say and it's adding to your legacy on this board. Please provide me a link to where he said this. If you can not provide any links to anything...you should really stop posting. Your opinion is meaningless. 9/11 is your evidence they followed us here? I am trying to figure out where you get your logic from. I guess I should start by asking why you think they attacked us on 9/11. What made them do that? What was their reasoning? I think your response will be fun.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77
Free speech is great...but when you are trying to debate, you need more than your opinion. You haven't provided ONE shred of evidence...proof...link...to back up your opinions. Not one. This is not a blog. This forum is where people debate back and forth the issues. In order to do that, you need to tame your internal emotions and provide evidence to back up your assertion. You have done nothing to do that. Everything you have said is opinion. Sorry you can't see this. I am hoping you'll get this eventually or you won't last long here. | ||||
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08-25-2007, 07:30 PM
| #34 | ||||
| Military Independent Dover Delaware
| You have broken the rules on here just as much if not more than I have. The mods did not warn me about anything. Curious where you get your opinion? He sent me a link to the rules and that was it. Please provide some proof that they warned me. Do you know the meaning of the word obsolete? Obviously not or you wouldn't have used it in that sentence. And this statement proves that you have NO common sense. AGAIN, if you decide to begin a thread referrrence WMD's let me know and we can do it. Otherwise why bring it up here? YOUR "evidence" consists of newspaper articles! lol How this is evidence is anyone's guess. So somehow a newspaper article is proof. Thats a good one. I did not attack Clinton for going into those countries at all. Because its funny how similar these 2 Presidents really are. I did however attack him for not getting bin laden when he could have and for infidelity. Both of which you cleverly TRIED to avoid. I also said genocide was ONE of the reasons out of many we invaded. Somehow I don't think you read my posts. Or rather that you take only certain parts out of them to respond to. I NEVER ONCE said he wasn't responsible. AGAIN, you are lying. I will not repeat to you what I said since you are being so disingenuous. You know what I said and are just lying about it. Very not cool. And yes, the economy is booming. Just look at the stock market, which had a couple record days in a row I believe it was last week? O, you must have missed that one conveniently? You talk of evidence all the time and yet you have showed me none. Back up your own statements! I would agree that Bush has done many stupid things. I never said he was the best President. Again, you know what I said and are trying to distort my words. And here again is a lie. No moderators adressed me on anything. Wow dude, and you call me uninformed? He has said many times all these things. Have you not seen the videos? Let me guess, the translators for the videos were on Bush's payroll? lol And OF COURSE they have the capability, or rather they soon will, since they are building a nuclear facility. Or didn't you know that? Of course you knew that because you claim to be informed. As for me stopping posting why would I do that? Because of you? I doubt it. As for links I see no need. I don't hang out on here all day like you do. I actually work and have a family. And why is everything I say meaningless, pointless, etc. when everything you say is supposedly well-informed? Why is that? Could it be because you don't like my opinions? You don't agree with me? And you say I won't last long on here. Why is that? Are you trying to imply that a moderator is going to kick me off? Pretty funny. | ||||
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08-25-2007, 07:59 PM
| #35 | ||||
| Banned Socialist Maryland
| Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 If you say so.
Originally Posted by ATCPRO77 He sent you a link...yet didn't warn you. Hmmmmm. Logical.
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