Muslims think we're at war with them

[Ardentfrost]

Muslims believe U.S. goal to weaken Islam: poll | Politics | Reuters

Muslims believe U.S. goal to weaken Islam: poll
Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:29PM EDT

By Michelle Nichols

NEW YORK (Reuters) - More than 70 percent of Egyptians, Pakistanis, Indonesians and Moroccans believe the United States is trying to weaken and divide the Islamic world, a poll released on Tuesday showed.

The survey by WorldPublicOpinion.org also showed more than 40 percent thought that was the primary goal of the U.S.-led war on terrorism, while only 12 percent believed Washington's aim was to protect the United States from attack.

"While U.S. leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the U.S. as being at war with Islam," Steven Kull, editor at the Washington-based group, said in a statement.

The face-to-face survey, of between 1,000 and 1,200 people in each country from December to February, also found about 30 percent approved of attacks on U.S. military in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Gulf.

But 60 percent said suicide bombings were never justified and 67 percent believed Islam was opposed to attacks against civilians.

"Attitudes toward al Qaeda are complex. On average, only three in ten view Osama bin Laden positively. Many respondents express mixed feelings about bin Laden and his followers and many others decline to answer," WorldPublicOpinion.org said.

More than half believed al Qaeda's goals included achieving a strict application of Sharia law in every Islamic country, with more than 70 percent agreeing with that aim

More than 50 percent believed the militant Islamist group was pushing the United States to remove its bases and military forces from all Islamic countries and 63 percent agreed with that goal.

But the poll found uncertainty about whether al Qaeda was responsible for the September 11 attacks on the United States in 2001. Some 20 percent believed the U.S. government was behind the attacks.

"On average less than one in four believes al Qaeda was responsible for September 11th attacks. Pakistanis are the most skeptical -- only 3 percent think al Qaeda did it," said WorldPublicOpinion.org.

"There is no consensus about who is responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington; the most common answer is 'don't know'."

More than half those surveyed believed the United States was trying to spread Christianity in the Middle East, while nearly 60 percent thought one of Washington's goals was to maintain control over the oil resources of the Middle East.

I made a recent post about how we need to be more careful about how we appear to foreign nations, and this just substantiates what I was saying. These kinds of poll numbers make me think we'll be fighting what we're creating for much longer than we'll be fighting a "War on Terror."

[kinggovernor]

the Islamic world is already divided

[Linzyhop]

isn't that because muslim media portrays the US from a completely different standpoint?

sounds kindof familiar.

[7960]

Politics and war don't mix.........we should go in, kill anyone who shoots at us, blow up everything they're shooting from, and get out. Worrying about damaging a "holy area" is bullshit when they have snipers in mosques and launch rockets from cemeteries.

They shoot at us then turn around and scream to the media that we're "desecrating their holy sites".......fuck that. If a bullet comes from a mosque, flatten it. If a rocket comes from a cemetery, blow the entire fucking thing up. And as we're pushing the buttons to do this we should be be releasing footage of rockets flying out of the cemetery and screaming ourselves "YOU ASSHOLES DESECRATED THE SITE WHEN YOU LAUNCHED A ROCKET FROM IT!" We should make an effort to point out that we're not fighting muslims, we're fighting PEOPLE who've co-opted what muslim means, but I'm not sure if the people receiving the message are going to get the nuance of that message.

This is why diplomacy is not my job.

[grembert]

Back in the 1970's the Shah of Iran wanted to suppress the Islamic faith and "westernize" his country. With the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, many Iranians and Middle Easterners expressed resentment with anything western, including the Christian faith, connecting the Shah with western influence.

That is one reason for the Middle eastern attitudes.

[7960]

^^

They're pissed because we're there and they don't want us there. And they're pissed because we defend israel and they don't want israel.

[grembert]

Originally Posted by 7960

This is why diplomacy is not my job.

Diplomacy needs to be somebody's job. We have this attitude that we can just go in and kill aand kill and sooner or later everyone will come around to our way of thinking, but it doesn't work that way.We don't understand what is going on in Iraq. That should be clear by now.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by grembert

Back in the 1970's the Shah of Iran wanted to suppress the Islamic faith and "westernize" his country. With the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, many Iranians and Middle Easterners expressed resentment with anything western, including the Christian faith, connecting the Shah with western influence.

That is one reason for the Middle eastern attitudes.

Ok, you're missing a vital point of that story. WE installed the Shah who was doing all that bullshit. That created major animosity as he was seen as a puppet of the "western world." They overthrew him and installed the most anti-western person they could find.

Their animosity was exacerbated when the old Shah (who was thrown out of Iran) asked to be allowed to seek treatment for his cancer in America. Jimmy Carter said "yes" and Iran (and a lot of other Middle Easterners looking in from the sidelines) saw that as affirmation of their criticisms.

It's a LOT deeper than the US being portrayed poorly on Middle Eastern TV now...

But it is important to point out that the people who overthrew the Shah back in '79 are the "old" generation. The newer generation doesn't seem to be as accepting of the anti-western ideals yet, but that doesn't mean they won't be if we continue to fuck with them.

Seriously, any of you guys who have seen me post for a while know that I am not so much for diplomacy as I am for just leaving people alone and giving them no reason to bother us (eg., through free trade and not having military bases in their country and shit). However, right NOW we need diplomacy because all we've done is dig a hole that we cannot easily get out of. We need to work toward leaving people alone and making them realize that despite our mistakes in the past, we don't want to infringe on their sovereignty or rights.

Otherwise I believe we're headed toward another bout of Napoleonic Wars, except this time we'll be playing the part of France (and everyone hates France)

[RMNIXON]

They do not seperate Religion and Politics in most of these countries like the Western World does. That is a very hard thing to get across to the Muslim World even if the media were not so biased against us. This poll shows they have a world view that is farther from ours than you would like to think. So we do have to be careful not to be misunderstood when we deal with any of these countries.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

They do not seperate Religion and Politics in most of these countries like the Western World does. That is a very hard thing to get across to the Muslim World even if the media were not so biased against us. This poll shows they have a world view that is farther from ours than you would like to think. So we do have to be careful not to be misunderstood when we deal with any of these countries.

You can't be serious. What is abortion and gay marriage?

[avsp]

I cant help but feel that the word 'they' has been over-used in this thread.

If the 'west' was at war with islam then what would it look like?

the rise of radical political islam is surely a response to the actions of the west in supporting Isreal & vartious autocratic regimes & general 'interference' in the affairs of the worlds oil producing regions

Its not a one way street as the thread title suggests, plenty of people in the west think we ARE at war with muslims/ragheads etc,. Even here at LL some ppl are far too prone into slipping into such an easy characterisation, IMO

Such is the near continual drip drip drip of news stories about terrorism & islam, muslims & assimulation, along with ministers commenting on the 'weird' & possibly suspect way 'they' dress, 'they' eat, 'they' speak etc that some middle class UK muslims are considering leaving the UK, at least temporarily.

Just imagine what its like for them, just see how irrate/upset/uncomfortable you get with 'anti-americanism', ..., now imagine that you are a member of a group that is in the minority & histrorically has a less 'privilaged' acess to power/capital etc

The inability of the west to successfully isolate Iran can be traced back to this as well. The total cock-up made of selling the war hasnt helped either

We, (humanity), are f*cked

[edit to add]
BBC NEWS | Magazine | Flight of middle class Muslims
I'm A Muslim, Get Me Out Of Here! will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 1700 BST on Sunday 29 April.

The situation is not dissimilar to that of the UK irish community in the 70's, ..., nearly every Birmingham Irish family I know had late night/early morning 'vists' from 'Special Branch' accompanied by local cops. They were frequently pointedly unpleasant.

It is very hard not to believe the claim that innocent UK Muslims are being unjustly targeted by uninformed, desparate, reaching, scared, put-upon coppers. I see evidence of this myself in my own life, (i've a 'muslim' style beard)

[avsp]

The tendancy to see this problem as somehow due to forces outside the wests control, (arab media etc), just fails to actually recognise the nature of the problem & actually is a facet of the problem itself.

Bush used the word 'crusade', he said he believed he was doing 'gods work' & that god told him to invade Iraq. He said the democracy was gods gift to the world etc. So although he DID take care to characterise the WoT efforts as not anti-islamic he totally blew it with his other comments. No wonder its so easy for so many Muslims to believe that its an effort to spread Christianity, ..., the west has consisatantly lied & interfered in their political process, they lied about the WMD evidence, they dissembled over the real reasons & then Bush has a very strong 'christian gloss' on much of what he says.

So poorly judged were these remarks that its hard not to see them aws deliberately provocative, ..., its as if PNAC really wished to make their policy 'un-back-out-able', ..., its just a shame that they havent really effectivly explained this to the western public. But maybe this is just merely ny bias display

[grembert]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

They do not seperate Religion and Politics in most of these countries like the Western World does. That is a very hard thing to get across to the Muslim World even if the media were not so biased against us. This poll shows they have a world view that is farther from ours than you would like to think. So we do have to be careful not to be misunderstood when we deal with any of these countries.

This is a good point. Muslims don't seperate church and state the way Western countries do. They expect their governments to be Muslim, And so any criticism of a government such as that of Iran, or Iraq is seen as a criticism of their faith.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by grembert

This is a good point. Muslims don't seperate church and state the way Western countries do. They expect their governments to be Muslim, And so any criticism of a government such as that of Iran, or Iraq is seen as a criticism of their faith.

well jesus, we need to ride in there on a white stallion and tell them how it should be done!

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by avsp

The tendancy to see this problem as somehow due to forces outside the wests control, (arab media etc), just fails to actually recognise the nature of the problem & actually is a facet of the problem itself.

Bush used the word 'crusade', he said he believed he was doing 'gods work' & that god told him to invade Iraq. He said the democracy was gods gift to the world etc. So although he DID take care to characterise the WoT efforts as not anti-islamic he totally blew it with his other comments. No wonder its so easy for so many Muslims to believe that its an effort to spread Christianity, ..., the west has consisatantly lied & interfered in their political process, they lied about the WMD evidence, they dissembled over the real reasons & then Bush has a very strong 'christian gloss' on much of what he says.

So poorly judged were these remarks that its hard not to see them aws deliberately provocative, ..., its as if PNAC really wished to make their policy 'un-back-out-able', ..., its just a shame that they havent really effectivly explained this to the western public. But maybe this is just merely ny bias display

I believe you have a well point.

I believe when Bush said those things, he was speaking for a sect in this country who really wants that to happen. According to some, in the scripture, when there is peace in that region, that's when the end times begin. And Bush really thinks that he can bring about that peace, and fufill that prophecy. He does, because I look at his buddies, and I look at the people who listen to his buddies, and they have a goal. This is what they want, because they think they'll get what they want from it.

Of course the Muslims feel attacked, it is totally tied up with Religion, but I don't believe it is they trying to convert us, at least that's not how it started. I believe the fanatics are a response to this countries force of our "Christian Democracy" onto the region. They have been 40 years in the making, and here they are, and they are pissed. Long religious wars do that, ask Rome.

[goldenponderbob]

Last I looked muslims were at war with muslims. We sometimes
get caught in the cross-fire. Which wouldn't happen if our
people came home. Which they would have to do if there was
no reason to stay. Which is to keep muslims from killing muslims.

Ii would be nice if troublemakers all wore uniforms so you could
tell them from peaceful types.

One more thing to put that on the list of stuf we'll have to start
working on once our people come home from those dangerous
muslim neighborhoods.

Be a shame if a bit of mud splattered on innocents while Americans
are getting blown apart on the streets of muslim neighborhoods.

If troublemaking muslims stop making trouble for peaceful muslims
enabling us to get our people out of there, I'll send em a case of
soap.

goldenponderbob

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

You can't be serious. What is abortion and gay marriage?

Yes I can. There is nothing in our Constitution to suggest people cannot vote or express opinion based on Religious conviction. That is not the same as leaders of a Religion running the government, most often without the consent of the people. If you don't understand that difference I feel sorry for you.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by grembert

This is a good point. Muslims don't seperate church and state the way Western countries do. They expect their governments to be Muslim, And so any criticism of a government such as that of Iran, or Iraq is seen as a criticism of their faith.

And they play that up. We are not attacking their rotten government. We are attacking all of Islam! It becomes personal and many believe it. We debate Bias in our media but we really don't experiance what it is like to live under a State controlled media.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Yes I can. There is nothing in our Constitution to suggest people cannot vote or express opinion based on Religious conviction. That is not the same as leaders of a Religion running the government, most often without the consent of the people. If you don't understand that difference I feel sorry for you.

Your first quote that I commented on:

" Originally Posted by RMNIXON
They do not seperate Religion and Politics in most of these countries like the Western World does. That is a very hard thing to get across to the Muslim World even if the media were not so biased against us. This poll shows they have a world view that is farther from ours than you would like to think. So we do have to be careful not to be misunderstood when we deal with any of these countries."


That is what you said. So obviously, that was wrong? Western countries...including this one...do NOT seperate religion and politics like you're trying to say. Just because there isn't something "official" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also...when the media goes out and potrays Israel the victim and most muslims as violence loving terrorists, I would say the "media bias" you express isn't exactly true.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Donkey® <