God and neurology...

Dumpy Dooby · 04-25-2007, 03:37 AM

Occasionally, as a measure to reduce severe epilepsy, people go through a brain operation that cuts the corpus callosum. The corpus callosum basically the main highway for information normally shared between the left & right hemispheres. People who have had this procedure done are commonly called split-brain patients. An interesting phenomenon has been observed in split brain patients: the extraordinary ability to hold contradictory beliefs in each side of the brain.

A s.b. patient being studied at Cal-Tech was asked to respond to questions using his left hand (to express his right hemisphere) and his his right hand (to express his left hemisphere). One of the questions asked, mostly just for fun, was "Do you believe in God?" His right hand pointed to yes. When asked for a response from his left hand, his hand pointed to no. He was dead serious.

So here we have a perfectly sane human being whose left hemisphere is an atheist, and a right hemisphere that believes in God. It seems to me like this is pretty clear cut evidence that dualism is completely untrue.

6SpeedTA95 · 04-25-2007, 01:32 PM

Uhhhh wow, this is pretty interesting.

Do you have any articles or anything on this?

Publius · 04-25-2007, 01:55 PM

that's pretty interesting, i'd like to read more on it.

I've always wondered to what degree split-brain can affect a sort of "dual personality" in individuals... It seems this is an example of sb resulting in major-league personality differences between the two halves.

ballz2wallz · 04-25-2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

So here we have a perfectly sane human being whose left hemisphere is an atheist, and a right hemisphere that believes in God. It seems to me like this is pretty clear cut evidence that dualism is completely untrue.

What's dualism?

And one example from one patient isn't clear-cut evidence for anything, ever.

Simius · 04-25-2007, 02:29 PM

I was reading something about that and one SB patient was hugging his wife with his left arm while pushing her away with his right arm.

Dumpy Dooby · 04-25-2007, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

What's dualism?

And one example from one patient isn't clear-cut evidence for anything, ever.

Dualism is the concept that mind (most dualists call it "soul") and body are two separate entities. That is, they believe that personal conviction in things like belief in God are completely separate from our body and the physical universe. This case certainly suggests otherwise.

For the Christians (and others that believe in Gods that punish people for lacking faith), where do you stand with this in regards to gaining entry into Heaven? You must bear in mind that one half of his brain is, quite literally, atheistic. It's not that one half is intellectually different from the other. Both halves are equally intelligent, but one is atheistic, and the other is theistic. When the question of God arises, his answer is completely dependent on which half of the brain answers the question. So where does that leave him as far as your religion is concerned? Can he make it into Heaven because of his belief in God, or will he suffer eternal damnation as a result of his atheism?

ballz2wallz · 04-25-2007, 03:46 PM

Ah I get it.

Couldn't splitting the brain cause a case of schizophrenia perhaps? Surely there's a reason it was connected to begin with

Dumpy Dooby · 04-25-2007, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Uhhhh wow, this is pretty interesting.

Do you have any articles or anything on this?

It was in the Beyond Belief 2006 series. I don't recall which session, but you can get the episodes from Google video. It's a series hosted by The Science Network that asks questions regarding science and religion. I'd give you a synopsis, but that's getting too far off topic; just read it on the site.

Here are the videos (again, I don't know which session had the case mentioned in my first post):

jimeigh · 04-25-2007, 06:07 PM

the brain is some pretty kickass shit

up|dn · 04-25-2007, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

It was in the Beyond Belief 2006 series. I don't recall which session, but you can get the episodes from Google video. It's a series hosted by The Science Network that asks questions regarding science and religion. I'd give you a synopsis, but that's getting too far off topic; just read it on the site.

Here are the videos (again, I don't know which session had the case mentioned in my first post):
http://vp.video.google.com/videodown...43761655636470

http://vp11.video.l.google.com/video...37060684&rdc=1

http://vp.video.google.com/videodown...34047741266525

http://vp13.video.l.google.com/video...44217575&rdc=1

http://vp19.video.l.google.com/video...72258071&rdc=1

http://vp14.video.l.google.com/video...48832193&rdc=1

http://vp18.video.l.google.com/video...45212168&rdc=1

http://vp04.video.l.google.com/video...95218309&rdc=1

http://vp04.video.l.google.com/video...26627936&rdc=1

http://vp20.video.l.google.com/video...12327756&rdc=1

I believe it was in Ramachandran's speech in the fourth video. For more interesting things about the brain works to process things into beliefs, Mahzarin Banaji's speech in the seventh video is also very interesting.

I don't really have any comments that I can think of right now, except that in Rama's speech, he also goes into experiments where some people have mystical experiences based on certain stimuli to the brain, and that in certain mental illness cases, these seem to be stimulated more often. (Maybe I'll watch it again..)

Dumpy Dooby · 04-25-2007, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by up|dn

I don't really have any comments that I can think of right now, except that in Rama's speech, he also goes into experiments where some people have mystical experiences based on certain stimuli to the brain, and that in certain mental illness cases, these seem to be stimulated more often. (Maybe I'll watch it again..)

I'm not sure if they talk about it in the video, but you might be interested in looking into Persinger's Helmut. Persinger invented a device that stimulates the brain to cause religious experiences like theophanies and OOBEs. It's pretty cool, actually. Supposedly his device only causes religious experiences for those that are already religious, and it always coincides with that person's current belief system (so a Christian isn't going to see Vishnu or something). If you believe in ghosts, then you see "ghosts." If you believe in spirits, then you "spirits." I suspect it's all the same shit, but then again, it could be like a dream and things are actually rendered differently through the optical nerve in accordance to what the person expects to see.

up|dn · 04-26-2007, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

I'm not sure if they talk about it in the video, but you might be interested in looking into Persinger's Helmut. Persinger invented a device that stimulates the brain to cause religious experiences like theophanies and OOBEs. It's pretty cool, actually. Supposedly his device only causes religious experiences for those that are already religious, and it always coincides with that person's current belief system (so a Christian isn't going to see Vishnu or something). If you believe in ghosts, then you see "ghosts." If you believe in spirits, then you "spirits." I suspect it's all the same shit, but then again, it could be like a dream and things are actually rendered differently through the optical nerve in accordance to what the person expects to see.

Yeah. I don't know if this is the test that they subjected Dawkins to, but I'm not surprised that he didn't experience anything. Since the brain seems to be a 'device' (I don't know what else to call it) that tries to make causal connections, it would only make sense that people draw from their background and experiences to fill in any missing information. When we feel a sense of interconnectedness or some other mystical experience, it's understandable that the brain pulls familiar religious symbols into the mix to make some sort of causal link.

It actually worries me that the brain seems to be so selective in the data it draws in and processes (if you've seen Banaji's speech, you'll understand), but it helps to explain why there is such a disconnect between our conscious and unconscious (the conscious is the processed part of what the unconscious takes in all the time).

I'm really just throwing my ideas around, so feel free to tear apart my ponderings.

redwards · 04-26-2007, 01:16 AM

I posted this on the CARM boards.

The christians went..... "huh?"

Kytro · 04-27-2007, 12:25 AM

It is pretty clear the brain is responsible for personality, emotion and complex thought. (Demonstrated via a myriad of neurological disorders and accidents).

The brain is one effective pattern recognition machine. It is what people are good at (sometimes it goes overboard and finds patterns where none actually exist).

Dumpy Dooby · 04-27-2007, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by redwards

I posted this on the CARM boards.

The christians went..... "huh?"

You should argue that the guy is going to Hell.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
-Mat. 22:37 (KJV)

You have to love God with ALL of your mind.

Dumpy Dooby · 04-27-2007, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by redwards

I posted this on the CARM boards.

The christians went..... "huh?"

CARM.ORG - Christian Discussion Forums

ballz2wallz · 04-30-2007, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

You should argue that the guy is going to Hell.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
-Mat. 22:37 (KJV)
You have to love God with ALL of your mind.

The mind and brain are not one and the same.

04-30-2007, 04:47 PM	#18
Dumpy Dooby tyop speicalist Religion Moderator Capitalist California