Was communism really a failure? - Page 3

Publius · 04-25-2007, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And my question to you would be: How "successful" has our type of government been? How "successful" is it? (Keep in mind I am not of the opinion that THIS is what the founding fathers had pre-determined for us.)

in terms of maximizing the quality of life of American citizens? It's been very successful. No governmental system is perfect or a pure success, but capitalist democracy has certainly been more successful than any communist dictatorship/puppet republic.

7960 · 04-25-2007, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

So why don't we collapse china, our enemy, instead of sending them 200+ billion in a trade deficit to keep them floating.

Because we need their kids sewing our soccer balls.

Donkey® · 04-25-2007, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I don't see you naming any.

The Soviet Union, China, Cuba...they are all/were all "successful" in different ways for different lengths of time. What determines "success"? Longevity? China is going strong and Cuba is still Communist last time I checked. I fear that the only thing people are basing their "it's a failure" opinions on are things like money and the fact that our government hasn't quite collapsed...yet.

Originally Posted by 7960

But did they fail because of the democracy or for some other reason? The USSR failed because communism failed. China is becoming more and more capitalist because communism is failing. Cuba is communist because Castro jails or kills people who disagree with his style of government....not exactly a success, I'd say.

So how can we literally compare Democracy with Communism when it seems you all are comparing CAPTIALISM to Communism?

Originally Posted by 7960

Nobody has said our govt is perfect

There is definitely an air of "we're a huge success" when I don't think it's justified.

Donkey® · 04-25-2007, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

in terms of maximizing the quality of life of American citizens? It's been very successful. No governmental system is perfect or a pure success, but capitalist democracy has certainly been more successful than any communist dictatorship/puppet republic.

And if our government failed tomorrow? Would that mean democracy is a failure?

Stylerod · 04-25-2007, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Isn't cuba rather communist? I mean sure they don't have it that well off, but at the same time there are countries with democracy that are doing worse.

They aren't doing that great. My best friend is Cuban. He took a big chance and went and visited his family there about 8 years ago (Since he was born in Cuba he is still considered a citizen and they could have held him and made him serve in their army). He said conditions were pretty bad. No toilet paper, they used hand clothes and washed them after each trip. Medicine was not given to the elderly since they are old and will probably die soon anyway. Most people are poor and when Jorge tried talking to them about Castro they all said it's best not to speak out loud about him.

He left with a t-shirt and shorts. He left everything else there, all his clothes, suitcases, everything so his family would either use it or sell it and make a little money.

He was more convinced of the evils of communism after that trip than he had ever been before.

Publius · 04-25-2007, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And if our government failed tomorrow? Would that mean democracy is a failure?

No.

Mainly because our government is a democracy, we're a semi-capitalist, semi-socialist republic.

7960 · 04-25-2007, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

China probably has a freer market than we do.

It may seem that way, but if the govt decides it's going to do something then there is no competition. For example, the govt decided it was going to "compete" for the telecommunications market. That was a euphemism for "we're going to force our military to work so cheap that no other business can survive" and they crushed all their competitors. Then they stole a bunch of equipment and turned it into "the largest blah blah blah........" That's pretty easy when you have slave labor, break a few dozen international laws, and undercut everyone's prices because you have no employees or R&D costs.

So you can say china's market is more free than ours but when the govt can and does sometimes decide to wipe out an entire segment of their market is that really true?

Publius · 04-25-2007, 04:30 PM

The U.S. government does pretty much the same thing occasionally, 7960.

DosEquis · 04-25-2007, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

China probably has a freer market than we do.

All of their business is government owned.

Donkey® · 04-25-2007, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

The U.S. government does pretty much the same thing occasionally, 7960.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Our government HAS interfered in free market stuff on occassion as well...for good or bad reasons.

thomez · 04-25-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

It may seem that way, but if the govt decides it's going to do something then there is no competition. For example, the govt decided it was going to "compete" for the telecommunications market. That was a euphemism for "we're going to force our military to work so cheap that no other business can survive" and they crushed all their competitors. Then they stole a bunch of equipment and turned it into "the largest blah blah blah........" That's pretty easy when you have slave labor, break a few dozen international laws, and undercut everyone's prices because you have no employees or R&D costs.

So you can say china's market is more free than ours but when the govt can and does sometimes decide to wipe out an entire segment of their market is that really true?

you could say things about the US economy that are just as ridiculous, look at what happened with our utilities, look at farming subsidies, look at all of the interference that we do with our economy

I'm saying that they are definitely not a communist economy in China, that's all. They have a predominately free market and it continues to make reforms in that direction.

Stylerod · 04-25-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And if our government failed tomorrow? Would that mean democracy is a failure?

Democracies were set up in Japan and Germany after WW2. You can pretty much consider those countries successful in everything they had tried to do. Economically, life styles, freedoms etc.

I can't believe we are arguing with you that communism isn't worse then democracy

You seem angered by Democracies success.

Hell, you being able to talk shit about Bush and our leaders should be proof enough for you. People in Communist China and Cuba are going to jail for doing that.

7960 · 04-25-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

The Soviet Union, China, Cuba..

in order.....

gone, but you're holding it up as "successful"

govt has re-built itself *again* and is becoming more and more democratic as time passes
wouldn't be communist if it weren't for castro killing people who try to change it

oh yeah, three really good examples of communism there

So how can we literally compare Democracy with Communism when it seems you all are comparing CAPTIALISM to Communism?

democracy, capitalism........... :meh:

There is definitely an air of "we're a huge success" when I don't think it's justified.

So far this country has been, no matter how much you hate this administration and hope it fails. I sense an air of "cutting of your nose to spite your face" in your posts.

thomez · 04-25-2007, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

All of their business is government owned.

not at all

7960 · 04-25-2007, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

The U.S. government does pretty much the same thing occasionally, 7960.

Nowhere close to the scale china does, but I'll get back to this when I'm done reading through your plethora of examples.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 04-25-2007, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

in terms of maximizing the quality of life of American citizens? It's been very successful. No governmental system is perfect or a pure success, but capitalist democracy has certainly been more successful than any communist dictatorship/puppet republic.

Yes, it has been successful, but what of the future? What happens when social security runs out, the baby boomers retire, our zero savings generation gets older, etc?

America's success thus far has been predicated on post WWII conditions that don't apply to the future.

IMO, it's been too short a time, with too few examples, to conclusively say anything about communism AND capitalism.

thomez · 04-25-2007, 04:47 PM

Social Security has nothing to do with the success of capitalism... capitalism would never product such an abhorrent system

SpicyMcVoodoo · 04-25-2007, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

A central planner doesn't the problem is you can have an army of planners as the USSR did and it still will fail..

I don't see the significance of this. There have been armies of rocket scientists at NASA that continually fail to keep space ships from blowing up, but no one, after not one, but several of blow ups, concludes that it's impossible to successfully fly a shuttle.

lew · 04-25-2007, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And if our government failed tomorrow? Would that mean democracy is a failure?

Democracy is a failure. A democracy was not what the founding fathers wanted for this country.

If this country collapsed tomorrow, it wouldn't prove that the ideal that the founding fathers laid out was a failure - rather, it would prove that a socialized democracy fails, just like it does every time.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 04-25-2007, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

Social Security has nothing to do with the success of capitalism... capitalism would never product such an abhorrent system

I'm saying that when social security disappears, it will leave you with a purer form of capitalism. That's when you'll really see what capitalism does. Let's see what happens to America when millions upon millions of people are insecure about their retirement and future. It might not be pretty, so it's a little early to declare American style capitalism the winner.