American Fascism

lew · 08-11-2006, 04:06 PM

I created a somewhat trolling thread on OT stating how America has basically become a terrorist / fascist country.

I then went on to say how we are unlike Nazis, Islamic Fascists, or Italian Facists. However, we do have our very own blend of fascism.

I would define American Fascism as a blend of liberal left-wing special interests groups, radical Christian right-wing groups, Lincolnian style government, and multi-national conglomerate corporations.

While unlike "terrorist" organizations such as Hamas and other Islamic terrorists, we still do employ terrorism in our war tactics. Isn't war itself terrorism? Do not we use terror on our enemies?

Again, I'm not saying our government is like Nazism or Communist Russia. I also am not saying that our country isn't a great one nor am I saying that we still don't enjoy freedoms here. I'm just worried about the future.

I simply wish we could go back to a time more free than we are now.

I certainly do believe we live in our own blend of American Fascism. Between the radical socialist left trying to indocrinate everyone with extreme liberalism, the radical Christian right trying to setup a theocracy, our "benevolent" Lincolnian government ever growing throughout every facet of society with it's leviathan tendrils, and these massive multi-national conglomerate corporations fucking everyone up the ass, I'm not sure what quite we need to do to stop this, if it's even possible.

American Fascism ftl.

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by lew

I'm just worried about the future.

I simply wish we could go back to a time more free than we are now.

by your definitions of 'american fascism' we were a lot more fascist in the past than we are now. especially in the religious realm.

lew · 08-11-2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

by your definitions of 'american fascism' we were a lot more fascist in the past than we are now.

I think we've been steadily increasing in fascism since the 1950s.

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by lew

I think we've been steadily increasing in fascism since the 1950s.

you think at the time the civil rights movements really began were were less 'fascist'?

lew · 08-11-2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

you think at the time the civil rights movements really began were were less 'fascist'?

Yes. We've gone from the government harming one race of people / citizenry, to harming all peoples.

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by lew

to harming all peoples.

the US goes back and forth between 'savior to the peoples of the world' to 'harming the peoples of the world'

i take statements like that with a grain of salt.

Ardentfrost · 08-11-2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

the US goes back and forth between 'savior to the peoples of the world' to 'harming the peoples of the world'

i take statements like that with a grain of salt.

Before the 50's, facist sentiments (which, I dunno if I'd really call them that... racism and sexism is more accurate, and we moved past them) were all internal. Since the 50's they have SPREAD to be external, which makes us actual facists.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 08-11-2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by lew

Isn't war itself terrorism? Do not we use terror on our enemies?

Not necessarily. The definition of terrorism is targeting civilians. War may or may not target civilians. If you're "terrorizing" only soldiers, that's not terrorism in the sense you're referring to.

DosEquis · 08-11-2006, 04:31 PM

We dont use terrorism we use "shock and awe".

On a serious note I believe are two biggest problems is the corporatism and what you describe as lincolnian government.

We need some serious campaign finance and lobbying reform. We also need a congress that with hold the executive accountable, and in general our checks and balances back.

Fix those two things and the liberal lobby and theocracy type problems will disappear.

On a further note i think a piece to the puzzle is Eisenhower's warning regarding the military industrial complex.

Ardentfrost · 08-11-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Not necessarily. The definition of terrorism is targeting civilians. War may or may not target civilians. If you're "terrorizing" only soldiers, that's not terrorism in the sense you're referring to.

I think the definition of "terrorism" has changed over the centuries

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Before the 50's, facist sentiments (which, I dunno if I'd really call them that... racism and sexism is more accurate, and we moved past them) were all internal. Since the 50's they have SPREAD to be external, which makes us actual facists.

so you're saying the US is responsible for sexism and racism around the world?!

Ardentfrost · 08-11-2006, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

so you're saying the US is responsible for sexism and racism around the world?!

no no, see, like I said, it was all INTERNAL at that time. Hence, we can't really be facist, though spreading a type of thought was done (in reference to slaves and women). We did, however, work through that as happens with internal issues, but NOW we spread our thought to the rest of the world, which makes us ACTUAL facists.

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

but NOW we spread our thought to the rest of the world, which makes us ACTUAL facists.

we did not spread 'our thought' of racism and women's rights. those have been around LONG before the US was even made.

Ardentfrost · 08-11-2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

we did not spread 'our thought' of racism and women's rights. those have been around LONG before the US was even made.

yes, true, but it was understood in the law, and judges would support those understandings, keeping that thought around.

It's really moot, because even if you don't think those ideas were facist (I'm still not sure I do or not, I just thought that's what you were getting at

) we STILL have been progressively facist since the 1950's, as lew is pointing out.

ballz2wallz · 08-11-2006, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

yes, true, but it was understood in the law, and judges would support those understandings, keeping that thought around.

islamic nations have those understandings still, and those were around LONG before US judges were evne thought of.

It's really moot, because even if you don't think those ideas were facist (I'm still not sure I do or not, I just thought that's what you were getting at ) we STILL have been progressively facist since the 1950's, as lew is pointing out.

i want to know how...cause i disagree that we are.

Nonphixion · 08-11-2006, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

we did not spread 'our thought' of racism and women's rights. those have been around LONG before the US was even made.

Atoms have been around for 16.4 billion years, that doesn't automatically make them responsible for the atomic bombs being dropped in WW2 and killing 70,000 Japanese.

Yes the thoughts have been around for a LONG time, but by us forcefully imposing our thoughts on the rest of the world -- The United States effectively becomes a fascist superpower.

Ardentfrost · 08-11-2006, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

islamic nations have those understandings still, and those were around LONG before US judges were evne thought of.

i want to know how...cause i disagree that we are.

I thought he gave examples quite well, but since I was just thinking about this sort of thing less than 4 hours ago, I'll give some examples.

In the '50's we helped topple the government of Iran and put in someone who was more America-friendly in hopes they would also instill democracy. He ended up becoming a dictator, hated by the Iranian people, they rebelled in the late '70's and put an America-hater in power (they blamed us for the previous 25 years of grief).

In the 50's, Cuba gained its independance and was hoping to continue the good relations it had with America. America was receptive until it became clear that Cuba did not plan on being a democracy, but a communist dictatorship (what really got piss in our Cheerios was that they were going to subsidize their sugar industry, making it able to be sold less than our sugar). Sanctions were instituted, trying to convince them to become a democracy, but it just made our relations more rocky, and ended up with an embargo and 50 years of rocky relations.

After dropping t3h bomb on Japan, we basically reconstructed their entire country around democracy.

Trying to keep communism from spreading throughout vietnam, we fought a long war that gained nothing (north vietnam took over the south). Our presence there ended up causing a HUGE war between them and cambodia. (it was caused by the north freely using Cambodia as a hiding place to fight the US)

Trying to prevent the spread of communism in Korea caused a conflict in the 50's that gained nothing other than sour relations with Korea and rocky relations with China.

Iraq has a fairly long history with dealing with the US trying to do what it wants with them. Of course, most recently we straight up invaded them to give them democracy.

There's an obvious trend: we think it is our job to spread what we think is right (democracy), and that is pretty much facism in a nutshell. There are also other examples, like us (sometimes attempting) toppling governments in central and south america, all in the past 50 years.

I dunno, it looks pretty bad from where I'm standing

Diesel66 · 08-11-2006, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by lew

Yes. We've gone from the government harming one race of people / citizenry, to harming all peoples.

Forget about Hoover keeping track of everyone and all the bullshit that came out around communists ?

DosEquis · 08-11-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Forget about Hoover keeping track of everyone and all the bullshit that came out around communists ?

Funny what powers can be grabbed when fear and intimidation is used... isnt it?

motivez · 08-11-2006, 06:41 PM

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

It's a good quote and I think it's true. We suffer from this kind of uber nationalism and think that we need to export it everywhere else to save people because we're so much better than them. Anyone who doesn't buy into it is oppressed and needs to be rescued so they can make the choices we want them to make.

We're unlike other fascist regimes though, I agree with you.. but we exhibit a lot of the characteristics.. Strong central government, lots of economic controls..

We lack a dictator at the head of the government, but with the recent consolodation of power in the executive branch, the blatent disregard for the laws written by Congress, and congressional intent.. we're certainly heading closer torwards a dictator than the kind of President I think was envisioned by the Founders