The Headline Reads: "Essay arrest baffles experts"

[Stylerod]

And in that essay the 18 year old student writes

A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora Capron by writing that "as a teacher, don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,'' an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.

Essay arrest baffles experts :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Metro & Tri-State


I'm not sure why anyone would be baffled. An 18 year old student writes about a teacher inspiring someone to go on a shooting spree in the high school should be taken seriously.

[RMNIXON]

Good thing he did not dream of hitting students and teachers with a Ham Sandwich!

Now I will not pretend I was the most popular student who loved his High School. But why would you write about such a thing? Why would you expect no responce?

We stopped teaching kids to "think" and are so busy teaching them to "feel" and "express" the most twisted thoughts as normal. We have educators who delight in "learning" from these expressive students.


Fallout Time?

[IminWonderland]

I know I am going to get backlash.

But if we start arresting people for writing Creative Stories, this country is in a WORLD of hurt.

I'd hate to see what the Cannon of Literature would look like if violence and immorality were removed as subjects.




I believe Farenheit 451 was something along those lines.

It starts at telling people what is OK and not OK to write about.

And then It starts on censoring them.

What kind of perspectives on life can we offer our children's children, if we are not allowed to express it?

MOST writers experiment, and many of them do it in sick and disgusting ways. In my own career as a writer, many of the things I have written about are disgusting, sickening, and violent. But I could very well make the arguement that I am only reflecting what I see in the world, which also has it's disgusting, sickening, and very violent side.

This kid did not write anything original that hasn't happened, or possibley others have thought about.

He doesn't need counseling, he just needs practice.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I know I am going to get backlash.

But if we start arresting people for writing Creative Stories, this country is in a WORLD of hurt.

I'd hate to see what the Cannon of Literature would look like if violence and immorality were removed as subjects.




I believe Farenheit 451 was something along those lines.

It starts at telling people what is OK and not OK to write about.

And then It starts on censoring them.

What kind of perspectives on life can we offer our children's children, if we are not allowed to express it?

MOST writers experiment, and many of them do it in sick and disgusting ways. In my own career as a writer, many of the things I have written about are disgusting, sickening, and violent. But I could very well make the arguement that I am only reflecting what I see in the world, which also has it's disgusting, sickening, and very violent side.

This kid did not write anything original that hasn't happened, or possibley others have thought about.

He doesn't need counseling, he just needs practice.

It's a tough call. Kids are kids, right? Sometimes they just do things to try to shock. But with what happened at VT fresh in everyones minds he was stupid in thinking this was the right time to write something like that. I really see nothing wrong with him getting at least talked to by the police for it.

[JaJae]

An employee of mine was recently brought to court over a screenplay he wrote for a friend. In it he describes a gruesome and disgusting death of a character. A teacher got a hold of it and turned it over to the authorities. He was given a court date within 2 days and has 7 weeks of court ordered therapy. Considering the kid involved, I think it was a bit overboard. He's more of a momma's boy than anything else. He likes to write and he likes horror movies. He wants to be a screenwriter when he gets older.

I think we get a little over sensitive when things like this happen.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

It's a tough call. Kids are kids, right? Sometimes they just do things to try to shock. But with what happened at VT fresh in everyones minds he was stupid in thinking this was the right time to write something like that. I really see nothing wrong with him getting at least talked to by the police for it.

You are totally right, it is a tough call.

When I child become's cognative, they begin to test the ways that they can shock and get the attention of authority. They test limits from infancy, and that doesn't change when they are teenagers. It's a way to see how far you can go, and I don't think that when kids do that, that they should be punished for it.

We impliment the standards and cultural norms for our society as it is, as it is right now, the standards we have are in stone, and if you are outside those standards, it's emminent that you will know it because you will be told. But, what I don't believe is right is entertaining every child for every limit they try to push. EDIT: Unless they are becoming violent physically.

To me that's the "kid" side of it.

There is an art side to this. I asked one of my Professor's how she felt about that VT kid...and the reality is, as she pointed out, she reads sick and disturbing things ALL the time, and she's never feared a student shooting her classes up. The reason is, is because what someone writes, is not indicative of who they are as a person. Because you have this idea, or thought, or something that comes out, and it comes out artistically in a way that could be described as vulgar, disturbing, or violent, I believe that is the healthiest way to release those feelings, and to express it, rather than shooting up a school. The same could be said for the Columbine boys. They weren't artist, and yet, they did the same thing the VT kid did, so what is written, is not a cause and effect for someone to do a violent act. We should all know that the whole package of someone is what we should look at and the VT kid was a disturbed individual, but he wasn't that way because of what he wrote. This kid in this instance, was a healthy, happy honor student. He should be in a continuation school, he shouldn't have been expelled, he should have been graded on the merit of his creative work (as my professor said to me when she gets a paper with that, usually she tells the writer "Needs more characterization"), he should have been critiqued, the teacher could have said "I found the imagery disturbing, if that's what you were going for, then good job!" Why can't he write something disturbing?

There are so many disturbing things in this world, shooting up a school doesn't hold tea to the amount of death and destruction in our world. We mourn for our 33 dead students, as well we should. People in other countries watch whole villages, families, and cities turn into ash mass graves. The reality is, is that although these acts of shooting up schools are terrible and violent tragedy's, they don't hold any weight in the scope of violence that today's kids can see on the news. By high shool, we become aware, and these kids should be able to take that information from their realities and work with it, and if that means writing it on paper, then that's what it means.

What would we do with out Bram Stoker? Stehpen King? Ray Bradbury? Mary Shelley?


As a writer, to me I can be passionate about this. Because in my early days, and even today, I can write something that can seem disturbing, but just because I write it, doesn't make it me.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

You are totally right, it is a tough call.

When I child become's cognative, they begin to test the ways that they can shock and get the attention of authority. They test limits from infancy, and that doesn't change when they are teenagers. It's a way to see how far you can go, and I don't think that when kids do that, that they should be punished for it.

We impliment the standards and cultural norms for our society as it is, as it is right now, the standards we have are in stone, and if you are outside those standards, it's emminent that you will know it because you will be told. But, what I don't believe is right is entertaining every child for every limit they try to push. EDIT: Unless they are becoming violent physically.

To me that's the "kid" side of it.

There is an art side to this. I asked one of my Professor's how she felt about that VT kid...and the reality is, as she pointed out, she reads sick and disturbing things ALL the time, and she's never feared a student shooting her classes up. The reason is, is because what someone writes, is not indicative of who they are as a person. Because you have this idea, or thought, or something that comes out, and it comes out artistically in a way that could be described as vulgar, disturbing, or violent, I believe that is the healthiest way to release those feelings, and to express it, rather than shooting up a school. The same could be said for the Columbine boys. They weren't artist, and yet, they did the same thing the VT kid did, so what is written, is not a cause and effect for someone to do a violent act. We should all know that the whole package of someone is what we should look at and the VT kid was a disturbed individual, but he wasn't that way because of what he wrote. This kid in this instance, was a healthy, happy honor student. He should be in a continuation school, he shouldn't have been expelled, he should have been graded on the merit of his creative work (as my professor said to me when she gets a paper with that, usually she tells the writer "Needs more characterization"), he should have been critiqued, the teacher could have said "I found the imagery disturbing, if that's what you were going for, then good job!" Why can't he write something disturbing?

There are so many disturbing things in this world, shooting up a school doesn't hold tea to the amount of death and destruction in our world. We mourn for our 33 dead students, as well we should. People in other countries watch whole villages, families, and cities turn into ash mass graves. The reality is, is that although these acts of shooting up schools are terrible and violent tragedy's, they don't hold any weight in the scope of violence that today's kids can see on the news. By high shool, we become aware, and these kids should be able to take that information from their realities and work with it, and if that means writing it on paper, then that's what it means.

What would we do with out Bram Stoker? Stehpen King? Ray Bradbury? Mary Shelley?


As a writer, to me I can be passionate about this. Because in my early days, and even today, I can write something that can seem disturbing, but just because I write it, doesn't make it me.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But when you go from "Creative Writing" to "Creative threats" you have crossed the line. Again, I don't know if charging him with a crime was the right thing to do, but the police questioning him was a must.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I know I am going to get backlash.

But if we start arresting people for writing Creative Stories, this country is in a WORLD of hurt.

I'd hate to see what the Cannon of Literature would look like if violence and immorality were removed as subjects.

I agree. No criminal act.

But when can a school say you can't be here? When can a school say the safty of the other children are more important than your free expression? Go do this somewhere else? The idea that you can say or write anything an be in a public school is nuts. The only protection is to be able to write your trash without government censorship.

[Kytro]

This sort of response is dangerous, talk about thought police.

Vauge references do not constitute threats unless there is something backing it. Recent events are not good enough.

The BS that in light of recent events he "should have known better" is total crap. Recent event should have zero impact on someone being able to express creative writing.

If the police believe they need to investigate, they should get a warrant and do search and get some real evidence.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Kytro

This sort of response is dangerous, talk about thought police.

Vauge references do not constitute threats unless there is something backing it. Recent events are not good enough.

The BS that in light of recent events he "should have known better" is total crap. Recent event should have zero impact on someone being able to express creative writing.

If the police believe they need to investigate, they should get a warrant and do search and get some real evidence.

So if someone makes a "vague threat" against your family you wouldn't want the police to know about it? Say it's a neighbor and he says something like "Yeah, I saw your son going into my yard to get his football again. I'd hate it if someone shot him while he was there." You wouldn't take that just a bit seriously? I bet you would. Just as this school did for this kid making the threat against his teacher.

Good for them.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Just as this school did for this kid making the threat against his teacher.

Please read that article again and quote for me where he threatens his teacher. I see where he said her creative writing class may inspire a shooting but nothing about his threatening her.

.........waiting

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by 7960

Please read that article again and quote for me where he threatens his teacher. I see where he said her creative writing class may inspire a shooting but nothing about his threatening her.

.........waiting

"as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first CG shooting,''

"As a teacher". He was talking about her. Not class. Her. It was personal. And he needed to be punished for it.

Waiting..............

[7960]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

"As a teacher". He was talking about her. Not class. Her. It was personal. And he needed to be punished for it.

Waiting..............

He was talking about her "INSPIRING THE FIRST CG SHOOTING" .... please point out where he mentioned any harm coming to her.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by 7960

He was talking about her "INSPIRING THE FIRST CG SHOOTING" .... please point out where he mentioned any harm coming to her.

Ok, I'll play your game. Maybe he just meant she was such a bad teacher someone was going to kill everyone but her? That wouldn't make to much sense now would it?

Waiting...........

[7960]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Ok, I'll play your game. Maybe he just meant she was such a bad teacher someone was going to kill everyone but her? That wouldn't make to much sense now would it?

Waiting...........

Still waiting for you to point out where he even comes close to threatening her........

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by 7960

Still waiting for you to point out where he even comes close to threatening her........

[7960]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

A year and a half before before Cho Seung-Hui went on a deadly shooting spree on the campus of Virginia Tech, a professor was so concerned about his anger that she took him out of another teacher's creative writing class and taught him one-on-one.

The former chairwoman of Virginia Tech's English department, Lucinda Roy, said the anger Cho expressed was palpable if not explicit.

Cho, an English major, never wrote about guns or killing people, she said. But his writing was disturbing enough that she went to police and other university officials to seek help.

And interestingly enough Cho didn't kill her or the professor from whose class he was removed. Where's the threat to HER in pointing out she or her class may inspire a shooting??

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by 7960

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

A year and a half before before Cho Seung-Hui went on a deadly shooting spree on the campus of Virginia Tech, a professor was so concerned about his anger that she took him out of another teacher's creative writing class and taught him one-on-one.

The former chairwoman of Virginia Tech's English department, Lucinda Roy, said the anger Cho expressed was palpable if not explicit.

Cho, an English major, never wrote about guns or killing people, she said. But his writing was disturbing enough that she went to police and other university officials to seek help.

And interestingly enough Cho didn't kill her or the professor from whose class he was removed. Where's the threat to HER in pointing out she or her class may inspire a shooting??

Waiting for you to show that Cho wrote something similar. Like her class was going to inspire a school shooting. Let me know when you find that.