I also have a question for pro-lifers

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

i agree with you on a lot lew, but in this case i think you're way off the mark.

And that's fine.


Most libertarians are pro-choice.


I'm one of the few that's not.


Regardless, I'd rather focus on the other million issues that we agree on than on this one that we don't.

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

Because I don't believe in killing innocents based upon some high chance that they'll have a shitty life.


And I agree with you that the mother shouldn't be getting welfare or other benefits - but that's the problem with welfare. That's a different issue from abortion.

I just simply don't believe in ending a life for the sake of "the greater good." The "greater good" is a collectivist, socialist perception and I disagree with it.

I love this answer......... "I'm *for* forcing women to have unwanted babies but *against* giving the mothers any assistance to help raise them."

[Publius]

Originally Posted by lew

Because I don't believe in killing innocents based upon some high chance that they'll have a shitty life.


And I agree with you that the mother shouldn't be getting welfare or other benefits - but that's the problem with welfare. That's a different issue from abortion.

I just simply don't believe in ending a life for the sake of "the greater good." The "greater good" is a collectivist, socialist perception and I disagree with it.

I don't agree with aborting it for some greater good either, i believe in the mother's right to not have the child for reasons of potential irreversable emotional damage that is just as real as potential irreversable physical damage (which, if I read correctly, you agree with abortion in the event of).

And I especially disagree with it when you say in the same breath that the government should force her to have a child she didn't want nor plan for (which if it were consentual sex I'd agree with you on, but if she was forced into the sexual encounter it's different), and yet say the government should not in any way assist her.

[lew]

Originally Posted by 7960

I love this answer......... "I'm *for* forcing women to have unwanted babies but *against* giving the mothers any assistance to help raise them."

If you can point me to where I said I'm against giving them any assistance, I'll blow you.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by lew

If you can point me to where I said I'm against giving them any assistance, I'll blow you.

you just said mothers shouldn't be getting welfare or other benefits.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

you just said mothers shouldn't be getting welfare or other benefits.

So government enforced welfare is the sole source of helping out individuals with problems?

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

If you can point me to where I said I'm against giving them any assistance, I'll blow you.

you want the govt to force her to have the baby but you expect the private sector to give her assistance?

that's quite a chance.... quite a big expectation with no guarantee she'll get any help.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by lew

So government enforced welfare is the sole source of helping out individuals with problems?

No, but if the government is going to force her to have the child, it should provide assistance in the event they are unable to secure it from the private sector. That's like the government saying you have to put your child in school or else you go to jail, but not providing any sort of education of last resort if parents don't have the funds to put the child in a privately run school.

I thought you as a libertarian, even paleo, were against government forcing something upon people without funding it?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

No, but if the government is going to force her to have the child, it should provide assistance in the event they are unable to secure it from the private sector. That's like the government saying you have to put your child in school or else you go to jail, but not providing any sort of education of last resort if parents don't have the funds to put the child in a privately run school.

I thought you as a libertarian, even paleo, were against government forcing something upon people without funding it?

I disagree. It is not the government's job to help bail people out of their problems.

[7960]

Originally Posted by lew

I disagree. It is not the government's job to help bail people out of their problems.

but it's the govt's job to force a rape victim to uphold her end and have the baby after "agreeing to the contract."

[Publius]

Originally Posted by lew

I disagree. It is not the government's job to help bail people out of their problems.

If the government is forcing that problem onto them, they should serve as a last-resort safety net. Unfunded mandates are one area where all forms of libertarians say the government should not engage themselves, yet you're sitting here lobbying for an unfunded mandate ("you must have this child and if you don't we'll throw you in jail, but if you can't pay for it we won't help you.")

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

If the government is forcing that problem onto them, they should serve as a last-resort safety net. Unfunded mandates are one area where all forms of libertarians say the government should not engage themselves, yet you're sitting here lobbying for an unfunded mandate ("you must have this child and if you don't we'll throw you in jail, but if you can't pay for it we won't help you.")

The government isn't forcing that problem onto them.


They forced themselves upon that problem when having unprotected sex.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by lew

The government isn't forcing that problem onto them.


They forced themselves upon that problem when having unprotected sex.

Yes, because a RAPE VICTIM can say, "hey, could you put on a condom for me before you rape me? Thanks!" and if he doesn't it is obviously her fault. Are you crazy? Are you really suggesting it is a rape victim's fault that she gets pregnant?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Publius

Yes, because a RAPE VICTIM can say, "hey, could you put on a condom for me before you rape me? Thanks!" and if he doesn't it is obviously her fault. Are you crazy? Are you really suggesting it is a rape victim's fault that she gets pregnant?

no, he's just saying that it happens infrequently enough that it's ok to ignore it

[Publius]

Originally Posted by 7960

no, he's just saying that it happens infrequently enough that it's ok to ignore it

doctors screw up births because they're high on coke infrequently enough that it's okay to ignore that too.















oh wait, no it isn't. And just because it is infrequent doesn't mean it isn't traumatizing... That's why I'm disabled, after all.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Publius

doctors screw up births because they're high on coke infrequently enough that it's okay to ignore that too.

oh wait, no it isn't. And just because it is infrequent doesn't mean it isn't traumatizing... That's why I'm disabled, after all.

is this just for emphasis or are you really disabled because a doctor was high on coke during your birth?

[Publius]

Originally Posted by 7960

is this just for emphasis or are you really disabled because a doctor was high on coke during your birth?

I can't say whether he was high during the delivery, but it came out afterwards that he was a cocaine addict (and i have brachial plexus palsy due to his actions during my birth).

[7960]

Originally Posted by Publius

I can't say whether he was high during the delivery, but it came out afterwards that he was a cocaine addict (and i have brachial plexus palsy due to his actions during my birth).

that sucks dude, sorry to hear it.

"it came out afterwards"..... at a trial? did you/your parents win?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

Yes, because a RAPE VICTIM can say, "hey, could you put on a condom for me before you rape me? Thanks!" and if he doesn't it is obviously her fault. Are you crazy? Are you really suggesting it is a rape victim's fault that she gets pregnant?

Why do you keep lumping rape victims in?


I wasn't saying that a rape victim is at fault for rape. I was speaking of consensual adults.