The Immigration Deal they want to slide through the Congress

[northhunter]

I don't know about the rest of the country but here in Michigan it seems our U.S. senators and congressmen are getting a large volume of phone calls and e-mails from those against the idea of amnesty being part of the deal. This according to our local evening news. I hope it's the same in every state.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I already took back my statement. Both parties suck.

My bad, I didn't catch it.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I disagree.

First, I would not use the word protectionist, like being anti-amnesty is some sort of motivation to keep the United States the "white mans" country and we ain gunna be over run by deez here messsicans.

Amnesty does an enormous disservice to the honest hard working immigrant who did the paperwork and followed our laws correctly.

Amnesty sets a precedent that if you just sneak over in large enough numbers you'll get citizenship one way or the other despite no respect for our laws.

It is not just "white protectionists" against illegal immigration. Being a 'liberal' on the labor side, pro-union, etc, I recognize what illegal workers generally get paid and what it does to the rest of our labor.

These wages are essentially slave wages and there is no accountability to those who hire these people who come here illegally. If they get injured on the job the employer washes their hands of the worker, the worker goes to the hospital, and then our healthcare system pays for these people who are not even citizens.

Finally if the motivation for such a bill is simply to get votes and is not necessarily what is good for the country, they will just lose my vote. I am interested in seeing what is best for the country not how many mexican voters the democrats can get. I believe (other than this bullshit) that democrats generally have the right ideas and path for our country. If they just went on principle instead of worrying about winning over latino votes, redistricting, etc, they would have more respect and would be more electable without needing to pull this horse shit. They are a bunch of used car salesmen trying to push a 1985 Ford Tempo with 185,000 miles on me, while they try to convince me it is a 2005 Monte SS...and then wonder why i question their motives, integrity, judgement, and leadership ability.

If that makes me republican, despite being pro-union, pro healthcare for everyone under 18, against interventionist foreign policy, against free trade but for fair trade, for a windfall profit tax on exxon's 35 billion dollar profit, pro environmental regulation, pro tax increases for the wealthiest americans, against the Iraq war, against a 500 billion dollar military budget, and against most republicans... Then fine.. call me a conservative republican.

No, its just you sound like a Democrat in the latter part of the 19th century talking about the Irish, and they turned states like MA into deep deep blue states

Yes, the Irish had problems, they were largely considered drunk and you couldn't understand their accent if they even spoke proper english and not some backwards celt, they worked for slave wages taking away jobs from good Germans and Englishmen...etc

I'm sorry there's just too many similiarities between your complaints and those who complained about the wave of immigrants in the 19th century

[Thorgrim]

i meant to say bush made the signal he'd sign it...the Dems have been working with Bush more than the GOP

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

No, its just you sound like a Democrat in the latter part of the 19th century talking about the Irish, and they turned states like MA into deep deep blue states

Yes, the Irish had problems, they were largely considered drunk and you couldn't understand their accent if they even spoke proper english and not some backwards celt, they worked for slave wages taking away jobs from good Germans and Englishmen...etc

I'm sorry there's just too many similiarities between your complaints and those who complained about the wave of immigrants in the 19th century

The big difference here is that we have settled the entire country as determined by the borders and are at near capacity. You can only take on so many people.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

The big difference here is that we have settled the entire country as determined by the borders and are at near capacity. You can only take on so many people.

we are not even close to capacity, that is an absurd statement

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by thomez

we are not even close to capacity, that is an absurd statement

I agree, the Mountain West in Particular are near ghost states, here are BIG states with almost no people:

Montana
Tdaho
Wyoming
North Dakota
South Dakota
Alaska

We have ample space and lots of room for growth in:
Nevada
Utah
New Mexico
Nebraska
Kansas
East Oregon

While you might complain about desert, the most desolate states are full of lush forests, plains, mountain valleys, etc

Even when I was in Minnesota, I was just outside St. Paul and there were endless miles of empty plain space

thomez is quite right, that idea of anything even close to full capacity is quite ridiculous...the funny thing is...you COME FROM NEBRASKA

I come from an area where there are so many people, there are about 5+ congressional districts within a short 5-10 minute ride of each other

There are more people in the Philly area than in your entire state

[RMNIXON]

I heard some numbers last night:

2.5 Trillion in after tax Social Security.

That does NOT include Medicare, 60 welfare programs, and disability for the family of all our new citizens. Does NOT include environmental impacts or public service costs like housing, roads, ect..

But on the plus side governemt will get to grow with this new big program and think of all those new government worker jobs to handle the mess we just made!

And do not forget that your own personal value as a citizen is not worth anymore than fence jumpers and their relatives.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

And do not forget that your own personal value as a citizen is not worth anymore than fence jumpers and their relatives.

"All men are created equal" is just a bunch of pinko propaganda.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Scrum

"All men are created equal" is just a bunch of pinko propaganda.

To have more than basic rights in this country one should be a citizen. To become a citizen, someone should follow the legal path to obtaining citizenship.. not enter the country illegally.

It's for their protection as much as the rest of the nations.

[6SpeedTA95]

I've been so busy this week I haven't been in this thread.

Motz however has done a good job summing up my feelings. This immigration bill is a crap pile.

Unfortunately democrats and republicans are trying to push it through. This bill will weaken the USA and create 12 million more mouths to feed, educate and give healthcare to with our entitlement programs.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by motivez

To have more than basic rights in this country one should be a citizen. To become a citizen, someone should follow the legal path to obtaining citizenship.. not enter the country illegally.

It's for their protection as much as the rest of the nations.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by motivez

To have more than basic rights in this country one should be a citizen. To become a citizen, someone should follow the legal path to obtaining citizenship.. not enter the country illegally.

It's for their protection as much as the rest of the nations.

I don't think a persons value has anything to do with where they are geographically.
These people come here because they have no place to go and this place is a gravy train.
I'm not saying they should be excused for anything, just that it's stereotypical to assume that if you are illegal you are a drain.

There are millions of people here legally who are a drain on society.

[Thorgrim]

Hispanics have proven time and time again that they earn their share and work their ass off

More mouths to feed...give me a break

Some of you guys need to watch All in the Family...think and reflect

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Scrum

I don't think a persons value has anything to do with where they are geographically.
These people come here because they have no place to go and this place is a gravy train.
I'm not saying they should be excused for anything, just that it's stereotypical to assume that if you are illegal you are a drain.

There are millions of people here legally who are a drain on society.

It's not about a persons value, it's about being a nation of laws.. and I'm not assuming they're a drain.. Many of them work hard, pay taxes, and only want to do right by their families by coming here because we are a land of opportunity.

I don't begrudge them the opportunity to take advantage of what America has to offer.

However, they must comply with the laws in this country in order to do so.

Just like I want Bush held accountable for his violation of the Constitution and his oath of office, these people should be held accountable for their violation of immigration law, not rewarded for it.. and so far it seems like that's what this bill does, while placing the millions of people who want to use our legal process to come to this country at a disadvantage to those who are already here through illegal means..

We should reform our immigration laws and make it easier for people who want to come and work and pay taxes and study to do so, but only for those willing to follow the laws of entering the country.. not for those who have already broken the law..

It would be utterly hypocritical to bash Bush, Cheney, Gonzalas, or any of those people on the stuff they do but say oh, well, they can't do it, but these 12 million people who are not citizens should be able to do whatever they want without respecting our laws.

This isn't a partisan issue, people who make it one do a disservice to the issue the same way they do with global warming.

[Scrum]

How many people are really waiting to get in here?

I have tons of friends, here legally, who never had to wait to come over. It was nearly open door.

[motivez]

Coming over here and becoming citizens are two different things.. and even if it was nearly an open door, there is a record of them being here, they have to fill out forms to be able to seek employment, and so on and so forth.

Knowing who is in the country and working helps us protect the workers from business who would take advantage of cheap labor as much as it helps protect us by knowing who is in the country at any given time

[Scrum]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but the post I was responding to seemed to be framing them as a drain and questioning their value as people.


Maybe I was reading too much into it?

[Thorgrim]

I see a huge difference between abusing the constitution to achieve political goals and live out fantasies while plunging your own country into disaster...as opposed to a father sneaking across the border to work his ass off so his kids could live the American dream even if he was unlucky enough to be raised in some dirt poor village in Mexico