The Immigration Deal they want to slide through the Congress

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I agree, the Mountain West in Particular are near ghost states, here are BIG states with almost no people:

Montana
Tdaho
Wyoming
North Dakota
South Dakota
Alaska

We have ample space and lots of room for growth in:
Nevada
Utah
New Mexico
Nebraska
Kansas
East Oregon

While you might complain about desert, the most desolate states are full of lush forests, plains, mountain valleys, etc

Even when I was in Minnesota, I was just outside St. Paul and there were endless miles of empty plain space

thomez is quite right, that idea of anything even close to full capacity is quite ridiculous...the funny thing is...you COME FROM NEBRASKA

I come from an area where there are so many people, there are about 5+ congressional districts within a short 5-10 minute ride of each other

There are more people in the Philly area than in your entire state

Just because there is areas of open land does not mean it isn't "full". You have to have open spaces to grow food and use other natural resources. Put houses in places that used to grow cows, corn, water supply, etc, and we start running out. We have excess food now and that is what makes it relatively cheap. It also allows us to help in humanitarian ways through out the world. Nebraska can only handle so much population before it damages itself economically. Nebraska also has finite resources. Your argument of "the state is big and empty" is not really that valid, and it is not that simple.

Being from Nebraska, as you pointed out, i realize some of the problems we already have even with our current population. Water is a huge problem in western nebraska. The issue dominates governatorial elections every election year. There are reasons why there are only so many people here, and that is because each of these "big empty" states only has so many resources to economically support the people. Not to mention they only have so many natural resources to support the people here as well. That is what i mean by "full"

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Just because there is areas of open land does not mean it isn't "full". You have to have open spaces to grow food and use other natural resources. Put houses in places that used to grow cows, corn, water supply, etc, and we start running out.

Population density list..
List of countries by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We're 172nd

England, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Switzerland, etc etc.. all are before us on the list. We have plenty of room in the US to expand without hurting ourselves.

[Thorgrim]

Please

Arizona and Nevada have worse water problems, yet they still invite people to come and help the state expand

States like Montana, I am 99% sure don't have any real water problems, and don't even have land usage problems, there is simply open space where absolutely no one is doing anything of value except owning empty land...land of mountain valleys that is much better than the deserts of mexico or jungles of central america

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

To have more than basic rights in this country one should be a citizen. To become a citizen, someone should follow the legal path to obtaining citizenship.. not enter the country illegally.

It's for their protection as much as the rest of the nations.

In an ideal world the basic rights would be recognized by all governments. But they are not. Considering we have a most generous immigration process I don't see how we are responcible for the liberation of all people? I think many would call that Imperialism?

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Scrum

"All men are created equal" is just a bunch of pinko propaganda.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."


I know you would not want to leave the God bit out on purpose?

[Thorgrim]

yeah, their Creator, Evolution

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."


I know you would not want to leave the God bit out on purpose?

Creator doesn't necessarily mean a "god".

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Population density list..
List of countries by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We're 172nd

England, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Switzerland, etc etc.. all are before us on the list. We have plenty of room in the US to expand without hurting ourselves.

Well, they will have to expand some place else besides nebraska. This is part of an article about our water issues from today.

Republican River basin - is coping with a continually fragile, irrigation-based economy.

Despite the flush of money created by irrigated agriculture, the number of farms in the Republican valley continues a long decline, rural businesses are struggling, and small towns are shriveling.

Although recent snow and rain caused river flooding, the area continues to reel from historic drought, unintended consequences of flood control and overdevelopment of groundwater irrigation. The basin faces the same supply-and-demand problems as the rest of western and central Nebraska, with the added complexity of 60-year-old interstate commitments to share the river water

Nearly three dozen communities across the basin banded together in the 1940s to push for federal flood control. The insistent Republican Valley Conservation Association sent a lobbyist to Washington, D.C.

Congress agreed to a system of reservoirs for flood control, irrigation and recreation, including five in Nebraska: Harry D. Strunk Lake, Enders Reservoir, Harlan County Lake, Swanson Reservoir and Hugh Butler Lake.

But they came with the stipulation that Nebraska, Kansas and Colorado divide the river water. The result was the Republican River Compact of 1943, which allocated the river's average annual water supply: 49 percent to Nebraska, 40 percent to Kansas and 11 percent to Colorado.

For years, the states were content, not realizing that a collision was brewing - set in motion by the lure of water and the drive to hang onto it.

Part of Kansas also relies on this water. So, find another state to populate because our state is full at the moment. We can only handle so many people.

[Thorgrim]

No, you can only handle so many farmers...are you telling me every inch of Nebraska is full of city or farmland?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thomez

the bill puts those here illegally behind those who have went through the process legally - they do go to the back of the line and the bill would speed up the process for those who went about immigrating in a legal manner

That's not the way I've heard the process described, I've heard they get to stay here in the mean time after being given a visa, and only have to touch back at some point in the future to actually start the process for citizenship..

Part of the problem is that this bill isn't written yet, so there's no actual text to go look at.. I hope it will be out there and debated heavily before it's passed, though I suspect the House is going to want to make quite a few changes to it that might not mesh well with the Senate's version.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

No, you can only handle so many farmers...are you telling me every inch of Nebraska is full of city or farmland?

Well, it is either city, small town, or farm. There isn't really any unused land because land is what drives nebraska economically, for the most part. We have more cattle (about 3 times) than we do people. What land isn't used for beans, corn, wheat, etc is used for cows. We don't have any other resource. We are short on water. We don't have any oil, we don't have any major manufacturing because that is in mexico and china. Despite that, we are not in bad shape (for now) but our population growth needs to be well regulated in order to prevent us from going in the negative direction.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Well, it is either city, small town, or farm. There isn't really any unused land because land is what drives nebraska economically, for the most part. We have more cattle (about 3 times) than we do people. What land isn't used for beans, corn, wheat, etc is used for cows. We don't have any other resource. We are short on water. We don't have any oil, we don't have any major manufacturing because that is in mexico and china. Despite that, we are not in bad shape (for now) but our population growth needs to be well regulated in order to prevent us from going in the negative direction.

Odd, I've been to some of the most heavily populated states, besides my own, and I see huge areas of uncultivated meadows

I find it hard to believe such a low populated state which such land is the big exception, that Nebraska has "filled up" while all the big population states still have tons of space

I've never heard of this phenomenon before, I suspect that it is because it is not really the case, it is only what you perceive...

[6SpeedTA95]

Of course there are unused portions of land in every state that may be just "meadows" or "badlands" or whatever you want to call it.

While the entire state certainly isn't being used Nebraska is a huge ag state and as a result that have very LARGE portions of land that are used for farming.

Go to google maps, go to nebraska and zoom in till the range bar says 5 miles. Then switch to satellite mode. You'll see just how expansive the farms are in that state.

I think you'll be surprised how little land is available and a lot of Nebraska that isn't populated or farmed is pretty rough country.

[DosEquis]

It is not a phenomenon. If we have land that we can plant something, or have cows eat, chances are it will have it. Just because you haven't seen it before, that clearly means that I am wrong though I have lived here my entire life and driven across the state dozens of times.

Take a look at it via "the google" as 6speed suggests.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

the entire state certainly isn't being used

thanks for the backup

and I'll note the previous link above showed countries that are over a HUNDRED times more densely populated than the US

google map is useless for things like this, it's impossible to tell if someone is using a field to graze or it's completely unused

however, it is very clear that there is open land just waiting for people:
nebraska land for sale, nebraskalandforsale, www.nebraskalandforsale.net, hunting leases

I am sure there is a lot more where that came from...the idea of Nebraska being "full" and they'd be unable to fit in any hard-working mexican families...ridiculous

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

thanks for the backup

and I'll note the previous link above showed countries that are over a HUNDRED times more densely populated than the US

google map is useless for things like this, it's impossible to tell if someone is using a field to graze or it's completely unused

however, it is very clear that there is open land just waiting for people:
nebraska land for sale, nebraskalandforsale, www.nebraskalandforsale.net, hunting leases

I am sure there is a lot more where that came from...the idea of Nebraska being "full" and they'd be unable to fit in any hard-working mexican families...ridiculous

Oh, sorry, 90% of the state is used and the remaining 10% is worthless for anything.

Guess what those countries do? They import certain types of food. We depend on oil from other people, they depend on corn, beef, and other things that require a large land mass to grow and raise.

If you read the description of the land you will recognize that it is not just sitting there doing nothing.

Originally Posted by ad

Farm - land - hunting business 1120 acres, 7 pivots, 8 irrigations wells, 2 ponds. 90 thousand bu. storage and dryer. 22 yrs running upland game hunting business. Club house, bunk house, dog kennels and upland game facilities.

Hm.. well lets see.. first we have FARM to describe the land.. followed up with 7 pivots (giant sprinklers that go in a giant circle..visible from airplanes and google maps), 8 irrigation wells..to feed the pivots. 90 thousand bushel storage..for crops.. and while this shit is growing they allow hunting on their land. Clearly that land serves no purpose. I can also guarentee that there is something planted there right now even as it is for sale.

You have no idea on this issue, ok. Just fucking trust me when i say all of the land is being used here...as in all usuable land. If there can be something planted, grown, fed, or otherwise used...it is used.

[DosEquis]

Oh and that FARM that does nothing, with 7 pivots, 8 wells, and a dryer... that thing is probably a couple million dollars with all that equipment. Illegals are having issues paying their $5,000 fine.. i'd say the land that does nothing is a bit out of their range.

[Thorgrim]

If you really think your state has achieved maximum utlity, you could win a nobel prize in economics for writing a simple paper on it

"hunting grounds"? I mean cmon, what are they going to write "land for sale, completely useless" please, my grandparents have a few acres of land of forest, I am sure they were advertising they wouldn't write "Land: Has Trees" they'd write about how people hunt deer, has various purposes, trails already established, some of it is fenced, etc...its salesmanship

And regarding the illegals being unable to afford, its called an organization, like Hispanic Migrants for America, buying up big tracts and selling small areas for family usage...no need for that land to sit idle on the internet, and that's just what's came right up on google, imagine what a serious real estate search would turn up

There is a whole area of property law called adverse possession, infact you could probably find cases today, where owners have not even touched or checked out a part of their land for so long (like 10 YEARS) that they lose their rights to people who have moved in and set up a basic trailer and actually started using the land...its a major part of US law, every state has its cases it deals with...

Yep, even Nebraska:
Rainbolt used the Hauxwell property for hunting ground, leaving the fence "basically, abandoned," requiring Marsh and Baumbach to repair the fence when Baumbach needed to use it for his cattle. Marsh described the fence during this period as "pretty dilapidated." According to Marsh, there were always fenceposts and some wire up, but on occasion, he and Baumbach had to bring in some new fenceposts and splice wire around various trees. Marsh testified that after Baumbach quit running cattle on the Bolte property, the fence became dilapidated.
Marsh hunted deer on the Bolte property, including the disputed property, every year from about 1975 to 2000 and was still able to see the fence when he hunted in the later years
N.W.2d, 2004 WL 2093253
Court of Appeals of Nebraska,2004.
Sep 21, 2004

Is that recent enough for you? I have many more cases where land basically abandoned in Nebraska was taken over when they were done be used, yet others found use for them

More:
It was clear that the witnesses presented by the owners[Leythams] were not familiar with the disputed property. The testimony regarding the use of the disputed property and boundaries ... given by [the Leythams'] witnesses ... was not tenable. Further, Ruth Leytham's testimony regarding the fences in question ... cannot be reconciled with the current location of the boundary fence.
Nearly all of the [Leythams'] witnesses testified they were familiar with the disputed land, however, they testified they had not seen the electric fence that runs the entire length of the southern portion of the property until 1996 and that the vegetation was not distinguishable from one side of the electric fence to the other. That testimony was not credible.
The evidence presented by the [Hucks] ... was consistent....
The Court finds the evidence to be in dispute. The testimony presented by the [Leythams] and [the Hucks] regarding the property boundary and use of the property cannot be reconciled. The Court specifically finds the [Hucks'] witnesses to be clearly more credible and reliable.
The court accordingly held that the Hucks had satisfied the elements of adverse possessio