Fuck Fox News

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I don't know what they said They said it's our fault we were attacked?

i think our presence in the middle east, regardless of what we were doing or trying to accomplish there, has created an anti-american sentiment. why do we always have to babysit other countries? I think we should get out of there because they don't want us there, half of america (or more) doesn't want us to be there, and the fight we're fighting is mostly going downhill, even with the all new and improved "surge".....

it's a matter of time, but we're just beating a dead horse.

[Galactic Gigolo]

Originally Posted by Publius

Yea, overthrowing a democratically elected government in Iran to install the Shah, that was totally correct and nothing but a business decision.

We had lunch with them and we got to write it off as a business expense. WALLA! All business.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Tell me how our presence in the Middle East has been wrong, please. Especially when it's been mostly a business relationship with them?

Look throughout the history of our interventionist foreign policy objectives.

We have a long and proud history of overthrowing Democratically elected governments in order to install puppet regimes more friendly to our business desires..

Just imagine what it would be like if a nation more powerful than us came over here and overthrew our government and installed a brutal dictator who would do their bidding instead of looking out for the people

I think that might make a lot of Americans angry, definitely angry enough to launch attacks on any foreign troops stationed in the country, and perhaps angry enough to launch attacks on that nation abroad if and when possible.

We're not innocent and we're not perfect.

Does it excuse what they did? Of course it doesn't, attacking and murdering civilians is never acceptable, but it doesn't negate or remove the fact that our actions have been directly responsible for generations of radicalism.. there's no denying it.

There's a huge difference in recognizing the reality that our foreign policy has consequences and attempting to justify the actions of those who are hostile.. Ron Paul did not do the latter. He attempted to educate people on the former.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Actually, pubes, it was a comment made in the blog in the link I originally posted, made out to all those who like to blame the US first. Read it, and don't blame me. I was just reiterating the point made by many towards the truthers and others of the 'blame us first' crowd.

lumping in Ron Paul and the truthers together is idiotic. period. The two are nothing alike, and any rational person not blinded by a love of the status quo GOP can see that.

Calling a spade a spade is not being part of the 'blame us first' crowd. Ron Paul is more patriotic than any of the other presidential candidates, because instead of blindly believing our country can do no wrong, he recognizes that perfection has not been attained and that we as a nation need to work towards it still.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Publius

lumping in Ron Paul and the truthers together is idiotic. period. The two are nothing alike, and any rational person not blinded by a love of the status quo GOP can see that.

Calling a spade a spade is not being part of the 'blame us first' crowd. Ron Paul is more patriotic than any of the other presidential candidates, because instead of blindly believing our country can do no wrong, he recognizes that perfection has not been attained and that we as a nation need to work towards it still.

That's besides the point. It makes people feel better to blame us because it sounds better. Let's not make the terrorists feel bad!

[Galactic Gigolo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That's besides the point. It makes people feel better to blame us because it sounds better. Let's not make the terrorists feel bad!

So the bi-partisan group behind the 9/11 Commission Report was lying? And all the people who hate America overseas and say it's because of American foreign policy are lying as well?

[Thorgrim]

1) We overthrew a democratically elected government and installed a brutal dictator in Iran that murdered his own people by the thousands using the Gestapo-like SAVAK

2) In 1965, in muslim dominated Indonesia, we overthrew democratically elected Sukarno for a US-friendly General, who commits genocide on a 1 million muslims calling them "communists"

3) In the 1980s the US begins arming radical and tribal muslims groups to fight the soviet union, and opening the way for arms merchants to bypass Soviet security measures to arm men like Osama bin Laden, after the Soviets withdraw, and while moderate tribal members are just finishing working with radical muslims, they abandon the moderates because of a fear "nation building" and let the country rot and turn into a terrible civil war that builds up a haven for the 9/11 plotters

4) In the 1980s the US intervenes in Lebanon, a traditionally French-related country (France is there), and because of Israeli influence, targets anti-Israeli outfits such as Hezbollah who have no serious problem with the US up to this point, this enrages Hezbollah who are now fighting other militias, the israelis, and now the US, they strike back killing over 200 Americans...Reagan cuts and runs setting the precedent that American militaries will run from terrorist attacks, which is why Islamists believe they can win in Afghanistan and Iraq

5) Also during the 1980s, the US supports Saddam as he becomes a secular leader, drawing the hate of many like Osama bin Laden and other Islamists who hate secular leaders, many radical muslims stay out of the war because they view secular muslims and shias both as a flawed people. However they certainly notice that chemical weapons and regular weapons are being used by Iran against sunni muslim villages or Iraq on its own people that are not secular arab sunnis, and they know the prime mover behind all these events is the United States

6) Later, in the 1990s, US-backed Saddam falls out of favor and to confront a problem of partially their own making, they station troops on sacred muslim group (the concept is hard to translate to christians, for catholics imagine the mahdi army occupying vatican city and being its police force...for protestants imagine the 1920 revolution muslim insurgent groups at every church door and cemetary)

7) After the Gulf War, the US keeps a presence in Kuwait and the Persian Gulf, as well as more US upper class businessmen and a residual force go to the sacred Arabian penisula

8) Using sanctions, hundreds of thousands of muslim children starve in the 1990s, facing conditions worse than the Palestinians in some cases

9) As muslims seperatists try to win their freedom, Russia brutally cracks down on them in Chechnya, using some of the most horrible methods seen during the end of the 20th century, despite acting as the new "leader of the free world" and protector of human rights, the US spends its time decrying Palestine using terrorism and ignores Russia's military terrorism


All of this leaves out Israel. which is the leading force...we've been their overwhelming ally despite the fact that we had nothing to do with the holocaust nor could we have prevented it as the UK and France may have been able to

The idea of moving to 1948 borders, which supposedly is all israel ever wanted, is completely off the table now, as Israel has huge lobbying power in the US and every country knows the US is interested in Oil and Israel, at the sacrifice of muslim lives

In 1967 the US gave questionable services to Israel and internationally defend them from those who were aghast at pre-emptive warfare being used

In the YK war, the Arabs had a plausible victory plan but the US came in and gave them assistance, to which many Israeli leaders say to this day was so vital that they didn't care if Nixon hated Jews (which is questionable) but what was so important was that the US helped them during the YK war...the Arabs one chance to gain face as a people was reduced to an uneasy truce, and they were forced to bear the shame of seeing the suffering Palestinian people, brothers of blood and faith, prisoners in their own land

If you replaced everytime I used "amercicans or us" with "frenchman and france" and christians were the victims, you'd have every christian on this board hating france and maybe even some being Eric Rudolphs using terrorism to blow them up

Which shows you, they have their reasons, they are founded, their actions may not justify the reasons, but they have their reasons none the less

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That's besides the point. It makes people feel better to blame us because it sounds better. Let's not make the terrorists feel bad!

It sounds better? To who? It's certainly not a popular position amongst the GOP crowd that was in the audience that night.. and he didn't do his campaign any help by being honest about the situation.

It has nothing to do with making terrorists feel bad or good or anything like that, we're talking about the fact that our foreign policy interventions have had the effect of radicalizing many people in the middle east.

Like my scenario earlier, if another country had done to us what we have done to many others, overthrowing their government and so, we'd feel animosity towards them as well. It's simple cause and effect.. and it has nothing to do with justifying anything they've done.

[lew]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That's besides the point. It makes people feel better to blame us because it sounds better. Let's not make the terrorists feel bad!

Paul is all for going into Pakistan and actually killing bin Laden. He's all for making the actual terrorists "feel bad" and be held accountable for their actions.


He's not for gaging war with the entire Middle East because of political issues.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Galactic Gigolo

So the bi-partisan group behind the 9/11 Commission Report was lying? And all the people who hate America overseas and say it's because of American foreign policy are lying as well?

It's an easy out. It's easy to point the finger to American policy, and avoid EVERYTHING that we have done to help them. NOTHING they have would they have without us. Without our business, without our technology, without our science. They are living in the medieval ages. They have nothing but oil, but how would they get that oil? How would they process it? Who would they sell it to? It's bullshit to say that they hate us so much, when bin laden is filthy rich on nothing but American money.

It's stupid to only point out minor issues on our foreign policy.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That's besides the point. It makes people feel better to blame us because it sounds better. Let's not make the terrorists feel bad!

No, the fact that Ron Paul is saying our foreign policy is not perfect and has consequences we don't like is EXACTLY the point.

[Galactic Gigolo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It's stupid to only point out minor issues on our foreign policy.

I don't think we'd take too kindly if someone gave us lots of technologies and then disrespected our religion and instituted policies that killed thousands of people.

[Thorgrim]

im not getting any positive rep for that amazing post i just made

[Publius]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It's an easy out. It's easy to point the finger to American policy, and avoid EVERYTHING that we have done to help them. NOTHING they have would they have without us. Without our business, without our technology, without our science. They are living in the medieval ages. They have nothing but oil, but how would they get that oil? How would they process it? Who would they sell it to? It's bullshit to say that they hate us so much, when bin laden is filthy rich on nothing but American money.

It's stupid to only point out minor issues on our foreign policy.

You're simplistic if you think that people can't use America and hate America at the same time. You're actually hurting the argument of Giuliani and all the other simpletons more than Paul's, because if their hatred of America was as simplistic as "they hate us because of our freedom!" then they wouldn't have anything to do with American businesses or money. The situation is a hell of a lot more complex than you or anyone in the GOP except Paul is willing to admit.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

im not getting any positive rep for that amazing post i just made

i actually would if i could, but apparently i need to spread it around before i give you rep again, even though i can't remember the last time i gave you rep.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Publius

i actually would if i could, but apparently i need to spread it around before i give you rep again, even though i can't remember the last time i gave you rep.

As do I.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Publius

i actually would if i could, but apparently i need to spread it around before i give you rep again, even though i can't remember the last time i gave you rep.

well i just gave you some, so looks like you need to spread some positive rep, may I suggest Scrum, SoFlaJDM, Roonie, thatguyoverthere

[Simius]

If it makes you libertarians feel any better... I have gained some respect for Ron Paul after he said what he said. It is nice to see a candidate actually tell it how it is instead of just saying what everyone wants to hear.

I sort of crossed him off early because I generally think libertarians are out of touch with reality (You don't need to comment on that... it is just my personal bias). But I'm going to give him a serious look now.

After the debates RP got interviewed by hannity and Colmes. Hannity started going off about "How can you blame Americans for 911? What could an American citizen have done differently to prevent 911?" RP replied that he doesn't blame Americans... he blames America's policies.

Yeah, there was 1 other candidate that caught my attention... But seeing RP do his thing definitely made me respect him more. I don't know if this will help him in the primaries at all. But if he gets the nod it will help him in the actual elections.

[7th Ninjai]

What do you expect from the neo con network? If you want to get really angry, take a trip over to Hannity.com where they are basically calling Paul a traitor to this nation.

I understood exactly what Paul said during the debate and agree with him 100%. Unfortunately, he's going to be torn apart for it because the media (especially Fox) already endorses Guiliani/Romney/McCain. Paul is viewed, wrongly, as a fringe candidate.