Israel Assists Palestinians

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by motivez

Considering Israel's culpability in the entire situation I'm glad to see them doing something positive for the people living in Palestine.

If the Palestinians had autonomy over their own lands and were allowed to move freely in their own territory, this wouldn't be an issue though.. so they don't get too many brownie points from me on this, even though it's the right decision.

I agree. Israeli closure policies are, in my opinion, too extreme and while we hear that Israel has pulled out of Gaza what we don't normally hear is that Israel still controls the borders, still controls the sea and airspace of Gaza and still regulates their imports and exports. Citizens of the Gaza Strip are not free to just pick up and leave for the West Bank.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by motivez

What's tiring is the idea that Israel's actions happen in some sort of bubble where the principles of cause and effect for some mysterious reason don't apply.

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is perhaps the largest problem I have when discussing issues surrounding Palestine and Israel with others. This problem isn't just limited to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict either, some people seem to have a hard time connecting dots, or looking at the roots of certain conflicts in general.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Dylith

I agree. Israeli closure policies are, in my opinion, too extreme and while we hear that Israel has pulled out of Gaza what we don't normally hear is that Israel still controls the borders, still controls the sea and airspace of Gaza and still regulates their imports and exports. Citizens of the Gaza Strip are not free to just pick up and leave for the West Bank.

Exactly, and it's saddens me that many people who argue tirelessly in favor of Israel exclude this type of information from their thought process while doing it.

I blame the media, really, because stories with information that is not pro-Israel are usually left out because of the extraordinary power of the pro-Israeli media lobbies.. everything is framed in a pro-Israel light, they're always discussed as having to "respond" to something that someone else does, rather than provoking, and so forth.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by Dylith

Many of these people are Fatah supporters and want to move over to the West Bank where they feel safer. One of the problems is that the borders of Gaza are very tighly controlled and often closed. Hundreds of people have fled to crossing points for various reasons. Some seek medical treatment in Israel but many just want to cross over to the West Bank. Certain crossing points were suppose to be open but weren't due to various reasons and the result was hundreds of Fatah supporters have been holed up at border crossing points. Also keep in mind that it isn't just Palestinian fleeing the area there are other foriegn civillians there as well.

Hazaah, someone who actually reads the news instead of jumping into a thread to spew generalities.

[Diamond Cross]

That whole argument on Israel is based on a fallacious premise:

That since Jews control the media, they are automatically allied with Israel, because Israel is full of Jews.

That's the entire substance of that argument.

Plus, the origin of the argument is also highly suspect, for those who like to use the credibility argument. If it comes from an author that ishostile to Israel, such as say, AL Jazeera, or say the leader of hamas, then its credibility is null andvoid for they as well as it cannot be objectionable, and it can only come from one's personal bias.

Butno matter what, the Israel haters won't change their minds no matter how many times they're proven wrong.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

That since Jews control the media, they are automatically allied with Israel, because Israel is full of Jews.

That's the entire substance of that argument.

Uh, it has nothing to do with who runs the media corporation or them being Jews.. It's lobbies behind the scenes influencing the media because the lobbies are pro-Israel.

There are registered lobbies in the United States that exert their influence on the media. It's a fact. Many of them are pro-Israel (AIPAC, etc) and have a vested interest in making sure that Israel continues to look as good as possible to the American people, because they rely heavily on our support.

The sources aren't "Al Jazeera" or "the leader of Hamas" like you've claimed, and calling people like me who don't agree with everything Israel does "Israel haters" is nothing more than pointless rhetoric.

I really don't think you've proven anyone wrong about anything

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

Butno matter what, the Israel haters won't change their minds no matter how many times they're proven wrong.

Proven wrong about what? Israeli closure policy? There really isn't anything to prove wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion about whether or not it exists it is a fact that people in Gaza can not simply pick up and move to the West Bank. It is a fact that Palestinians have to get permits to travel just about anywhere and often times have difficulties simply leaving and re-entering the very towns that they live in. It is a fact that Israel has closed down the borders of Gaza many times. It is a fact that Israeli closure policies have contibuted to economic instability in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip leading to higher levels of unemployment and high levels of poverty.

The matter of opinion comes into play with how you feel about such policies.

And that is simply one issue. Israel does other things as well which I feel are too radical or are not condusive to a realistic peace process in the Middle East.

I am not saying that the Palestinian people are all blameless, but the issue is not the black and white ordeal that so many make it out to be. Neither side is a saint and neither is innocent of human rights abuses.

[Dylith]

Another side to the story:

Aid agencies warn of humanitarian crisis in Gaza | U.S. | Reuters

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Dylith

Many of these people are Fatah supporters and want to move over to the West Bank where they feel safer. One of the problems is that the borders of Gaza are very tighly controlled and often closed. Hundreds of people have fled to crossing points for various reasons. Some seek medical treatment in Israel but many just want to cross over to the West Bank. Certain crossing points were suppose to be open but weren't due to various reasons and the result was hundreds of Fatah supporters have been holed up at border crossing points. Also keep in mind that it isn't just Palestinian fleeing the area there are other foriegn civillians there as well.

And I have a great deal of sympathy for the people of Palestine. A good part of that is a clear understanding of how they are being used as human tools of aggression against the State of Israel by outsiders.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

That whole argument on Israel is based on a fallacious premise:

That since Jews control the media, they are automatically allied with Israel, because Israel is full of Jews.

That's the entire substance of that argument.

Plus, the origin of the argument is also highly suspect, for those who like to use the credibility argument. If it comes from an author that ishostile to Israel, such as say, AL Jazeera, or say the leader of hamas, then its credibility is null andvoid for they as well as it cannot be objectionable, and it can only come from one's personal bias.

Butno matter what, the Israel haters won't change their minds no matter how many times they're proven wrong.

One wonders how the leftist in this country get their information through this mighty blockade of power? Some day it might put a stop to these pro-Israeli demonstrations and Rallies at University!

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Dylith

Another side to the story:

Aid agencies warn of humanitarian crisis in Gaza | U.S. | Reuters

And this has nothing to do with those powers who would flood Gaza with arms and explosives?

[Joe_Cool]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Treat people like savages, they act like savages...true story. They take their land...lock them up in what amounts to a zoo...sure, i'd be a little angry as well.

You have cause and effect backwards.

If you act like a savage, expect to be treated like a savage.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

You have cause and effect backwards.

If you act like a savage, expect to be treated like a savage.

I dunno, I don't think the fact that Israel acts like a savage necessarily justifies the way the Palestinians treat Israel in response, especially when it comes to blindly launching rockets into areas with civilians..

But then again, Israel has no problem continually launching aggressive military operations in civilian areas, bulldozing houses, and so forth.. so maybe you have a point

[Nonphixion]

Originally Posted by motivez

I dunno, I don't think the fact that Israel acts like a savage necessarily justifies the way the Palestinians treat Israel in response, especially when it comes to blindly launching rockets into areas with civilians..

But then again, Israel has no problem continually launching aggressive military operations in civilian areas, bulldozing houses, and so forth.. so maybe you have a point

Yes, Israel fires Merkava 108mm Tank Shells at civilian apartment buildings, uses Apache Attack Helicopters on civilian city blocks, breaks the arms of young protesting children, uses IDF military snipers to shoot and kill Palestinian women peacefully demonstrating in the streets -- then stops and blockades the ambulances (as it often does block ambulances, in true Israeli form) from taking those women to get medical care

[RMNIXON]

SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Monday he intended to free 250 Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails in a goodwill gesture to President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the moderate Fatah faction.

The two leaders held talks in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, their first meeting since Islamist Hamas militants routed Abbas's secular forces in Gaza this month to split the enclave from his larger stronghold in the West Bank.

Olmert told a news conference with Palestinian, Egyptian and Jordanian leaders he would work with "moderates" like Abbas against "terrorists" -- a clear reference to Hamas militants -- to secure peace in the Middle East.

"As a gesture of goodwill towards the Palestinians, I today announced my intention to release approximately 250 prisoners who are members of Fatah who do not have blood on their hands, with their commitment not to involve themselves again in terror," said Olmert.

"I'm optimistic that, especially in these turbulent days ... an opportunity has been created to seriously move forward with the regional peace process," he said. "I don't plan to let this opportunity slip away."

Hamas has accused Abbas of giving in to "Zionist blackmail."


Israel freeing 250 Palestinians in peace gesture - Yahoo! News

Must be up to something?

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Monday he intended to free 250 Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails in a goodwill gesture to President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the moderate Fatah faction.

The two leaders held talks in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, their first meeting since Islamist Hamas militants routed Abbas's secular forces in Gaza this month to split the enclave from his larger stronghold in the West Bank.

Olmert told a news conference with Palestinian, Egyptian and Jordanian leaders he would work with "moderates" like Abbas against "terrorists" -- a clear reference to Hamas militants -- to secure peace in the Middle East.

"As a gesture of goodwill towards the Palestinians, I today announced my intention to release approximately 250 prisoners who are members of Fatah who do not have blood on their hands, with their commitment not to involve themselves again in terror," said Olmert.

"I'm optimistic that, especially in these turbulent days ... an opportunity has been created to seriously move forward with the regional peace process," he said. "I don't plan to let this opportunity slip away."

Hamas has accused Abbas of giving in to "Zionist blackmail."


Israel freeing 250 Palestinians in peace gesture - Yahoo! News

Must be up to something?

Ignoring the fact that Israel and the US just helped undermine the ELECTED government...sure, this is a nice gesture.

[motivez]

It should also be noted that the Israel failing to live up to it's agreement as far as prisoner release and exchanges was one of the major reasons the groups retaliated and kidnapped that Israeli soldier..

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by motivez

It should also be noted that the Israel failing to live up to it's agreement as far as prisoner release and exchanges was one of the major reasons the groups retaliated and kidnapped that Israeli soldier..

And let's also include the fact they are all Fatah members.

Israel to release Fatah prisoners - CNN.com

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And let's also include the fact they are all Fatah members.

Israel to release Fatah prisoners - CNN.com

Well yeah thats the whole idea. I'm somewhat conflicted on all this favoring Fatah. On the one hand, is condescending, hypocritical and immoral. On the other hand, if it works, it possibly makes leaps and bounds for peace.