There seem to be a few misconceptions on Stem Cell Research - Page 2

motivez · 07-22-2006, 05:53 PM

We're not talking about private and corporate investors, we're talking about government funding.

Not all science is going to be immediately attractive to private investors or corporations, and in those instances, it's important to continue marching forward, which is why federal funding for increased research (ie: new lines) is a good thing.

The fact is, Spicy is correct. This was veto'd because the religious groups wanted it on moral grounds, and Bush was all too happy to acquiesce on moral grounds.

motivez · 07-22-2006, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

You are now quibbling in an area of such extreme insignificance that it isn't worth debating. Like debating the 1/10th of an inch difference in trigger length in a discussion on whether or not assault rifles should be banned.

So now that you finally understand my thrice clarified position, it's suddenly irrelevant?

Feel free to be dismissive if you want, but this is the real issue that people have a problem with.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 05:57 PM

You have yet to show me when, where, or how Bush reduced funding of embryonic stem cell research.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

So now that you finally understand my thrice clarified position, it's suddenly irrelevant?

Feel free to be dismissive if you want, but this is the real issue that people have a problem with.

People have a problem with it because people (including you and Spicy) keep making the gross logical fallacy of equating a ban of harvesting with a ban of research. Then you make an even worse logical fallacy by equating embryonic stem cell research (which, AGAIN, is still being funded) with adult stem cell research - which is about as ridiculous as comparing DC power to AC power.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

Explain to me how scientific progress has been stopped because of religion.

Allow me to give you the cliff notes version of the facts before you embarass yourself.

1. Embryonic stem cell harvesting is still being done around the world.
2. Embryonic stem cell research is still bring done in the US and around the world.
3. Bush did not cut funding to embryonic stem cell research of operations which have embryonic stem cell lines.
4. The reason embryonic stem cell research is so "underfunded" (in comparison to adult stem cell investment) is because private and corporate investors see it as a useless avenue of research.

So now, assuming you still want to participate in this thread, you need to prove how #4 is the fault of religion.

Sure, I'll explain it to you. It's pretty simple. Regardless of what is already being funded by the private sector, if the federal government also supplied funding, even more research would be done. When more research is done, there is more chance of scientific progress, no matter how slight the chance increases. Because of Bush's religion, he has decided not to supply federal funding; therefore, less research will be done, which means there is less chance of scientific progress.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Because of Bush's religion, he has decided not to supply federal funding; therefore, less research will be done, which means there is less chance of scientific progress.

:gtfo:

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

:gtfo:

What exactly do you disagree with?

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

What exactly do you disagree with?

The part where you and Motivez both consistently make the same god damn mistake in claiming that Bush has decreased funding to embryonic stem cell research.

I'm also pissed that you equate the refusal to fund harvesting of stem cells with halting scientific process when even if Bush shifted the entire military budget over to stem cell harvesting it wouldn't do a GOD DAMN THING.

The researchers would have the SAME budget and they would STILL be completely ignored by the private and corporate investment community (of which the VAST majority of funding comes from) because it is viewed as a JUNK AVENUE OF RESEARCH BY EXPERTS IN THE SCIENTIFIC AND SCIENTIFIC INVESTMENT COMMUNITY

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

The part where you and Motivez both consistently make the same god damn mistake in claiming that Bush has decreased funding to embryonic stem cell research.

Stop quibbling over semantics. Has Bush prohibited federal funds from going to certain types of stem cell research, yes or no? If yes, then that means research that would be done with federal funding is now not being done, which means less chance of scientific progress.

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I'm also pissed that you equate the refusal to fund harvesting of stem cells with halting scientific process when even if Bush shifted the entire military budget over to stem cell harvesting it wouldn't do a GOD DAMN THING.

How do you know it wouldn't do a god damn thing? Do you have a little crystal ball? Do you know, with absolute certainty, that more research in that area would yield no results?

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

it is viewed as a JUNK AVENUE OF RESEARCH BY EXPERTS IN THE SCIENTIFIC AND SCIENTIFIC INVESTMENT COMMUNITY

Says who? The prolife and Baptist news networks? Like I said before, I don't care if it only has a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of yielding any results. Throwing away even the slightest chance of scientific progress because of religion is archaic and backwards.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Stop quibbling over semantics. Has Bush prohibited federal funds from going to certain types of stem cell research, yes or no?

No, he has not, as I have said numerous times and which Motivez and I have reached an understanding on. In fact he has increased all areas of stem cell research funding, little good it will do in the case of embryonic research.

How do you know it wouldn't do a god damn thing? Do you have a little crystal ball? Do you know, with absolute certainty, that more research in that area would yield no results?

What the hell are you talking about? I have no power over whether or not private and corporate investors, as well as the scientific community, views it as a junk avenue of science. If you don't like it get down on your knees and complain to God that embryonic stem cell research hasn't even hinted at being worthwhile. Stop blaming Bush when he has NOT reduced funding and when he has ZERO power to influence where scientific breakthroughs occur.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Says who? The prolife and Baptist news networks? Like I said before, I don't care if it only has a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of yielding any results. Throwing away even the slightest chance of scientific progress because of religion is archaic and backwards.

Says who? Says the experts in that field as well as the investors who make it their business to know.

You have AGAIN claimed that bush has thrown away scientific progress and you have AGAIN failed to show how.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by TekDragon

No, he has not, as I have said numerous times and which Motivez and I have reached an understanding on. In fact he has increased all areas of stem cell research funding, little good it will do in the case of embryonic research.

Then what exactly has Bush prohibited regarding stem cell research? Has he prohibited anything?

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Then what exactly has Bush prohibited regarding stem cell research? Has he prohibited anything?

No. Hence the point of this thread due to the many misconceptions.

motivez · 07-22-2006, 06:24 PM

He's banned federal funding for research of new lines of **edit *** embryonic stem cells, something many believe is needed before the true potential of the science will be realized.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

He's banned funding on new lines of stem cells, something many believe is needed before the true potential of the science will be realized.

No. An embryonic stem cell is an embryonic stem cell. What matters is the research of those stem cells. Funding has NOT been diminished in that area except by the private and corporate investers which have viewed it as being a worthless avenue of science.

And regardless of whethere they are a bunch of ignorant bible thumpers or not, it isn't Bush's fault that THEY reduced their funding.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:26 PM

Well WTF is the real story? Tek, you just said Bush has prohibited absolutely nothing, while Motivez just said he has prohibited certain types of federal funding.

motivez · 07-22-2006, 06:27 PM

What do you think he veto'd then, Tek?

SpicyMcVoodoo · 07-22-2006, 06:27 PM

Can I get a clear answer to the following question:

Has Bush made any decisions that will lead to less research being done in any area having to do with stem cells?

If the answer is yes, then my point remains.

TekDragon · 07-22-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Well WTF is the real story? Tek, you just said Bush has prohibited absolutely nothing, while Motivez just said he has prohibited certain types of federal funding.

Imagine you have 2 types of dots and research is being done on those dots. A number of fields are researching dot A, which requires a questionable drawing technique to create them. A ban is placed on drawing dot A, which doesn't matter because there are more than enough dots already drawn to do research. Research funding of dot A is not touched.

Meanwhile the scientific community and the scientific investment community doesn't give a shit about dot A because every time you try to research dot A it kills everything it touches.