Verticle farming

[Dumpy Dooby]

Advantages of Vertical Farming

• Year-round crop production; 1 indoor acre is equivalent to 4-6 outdoor acres or more, depending upon the crop (e.g., strawberries: 1 indoor acre = 30 outdoor acres)
  No weather-related crop failures due to droughts, floods, pests
• All VF food is grown organically: no herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers
• VF virtually eliminates agricultural runoff by recycling black water
• VF returns farmland to nature, restoring ecosystem functions and services
• VF greatly reduces the incidence of many infectious diseases that are acquired at the agricultural interface
• VF converts black and gray water into potable water by collecting the water of
  evapotranspiration
• VF adds energy back to the grid via methane generation from composting non-edible
  parts of plants and animals
• VF dramatically reduces fossil fuel use (no tractors, plows, shipping.)
• VF converts abandoned urban properties into food production centers
• VF creates sustainable environments for urban centers
• VF creates new employment opportunities
• We cannot go to the moon, Mars, or beyond without first learning to farm indoors on
  earth
• VF may prove to be useful for integrating into refugee camps
• VF offers the promise of measurable economic improvement for tropical and subtropical
  LDCs. If this should prove to be the case, then VF may be a catalyst in helping to reduce or even reverse the population growth of LDCs as they adopt urban agriculture as a strategy for sustainable food production.
• VF could reduce the incidence of armed conflict over natural resources, such as water
  and land for agriculture

The Vertical Farm Project - Agriculture for the 21st Century and Beyond...



That looks interesting to me. What do you guys think? Personally, I think I would much rather have the government subsidize a project like that rather than subsidizing our current methods -- provided this thing is as great as they're hyping it up to be.

[thomez]

looks like that could greatly expand the areas in which you could grow... about anything

pretty nifty, are there plans to build one somewhere?

[Publius]

i'd love to see one built and see how well it works in practice. We already do in door farming with hydroponic green houses, this is the next logical step.

[thomez]

local dude was doing some hydro green house action and got busted for 500,000 in shit

[Publius]

Originally Posted by thomez

local dude was doing some hydro green house action and got busted for 500,000 in shit

maybe he should've been growing hydroponic lettuce instead of hydroponic marijuana.

But that raises a good point: individual entrepreneurs can create working hydroponic green houses, so this technology can't be that hard to impliment. Hell, I could see a company like Whole Foods doing it: build a 20 story tower, make the bottom floor the actual store, and make the floors above growing areas. That way they have the freshest of fresh produce available every day in store, and can charge less because transportation costs would be pretty much zero.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Publius

maybe he should've been growing hydroponic lettuce instead of hydroponic marijuana.

But that raises a good point: individual entrepreneurs can create working hydroponic green houses, so this technology can't be that hard to impliment. Hell, I could see a company like Whole Foods doing it: build a 20 story tower, make the bottom floor the actual store, and make the floors above growing areas. That way they have the freshest of fresh produce available every day in store, and can charge less because transportation costs would be pretty much zero.

Hey, that's not a bad idea. You're a clever little monkey.

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by Publius

maybe he should've been growing hydroponic lettuce instead of hydroponic marijuana.

But that raises a good point: individual entrepreneurs can create working hydroponic green houses, so this technology can't be that hard to impliment. Hell, I could see a company like Whole Foods doing it: build a 20 story tower, make the bottom floor the actual store, and make the floors above growing areas. That way they have the freshest of fresh produce available every day in store, and can charge less because transportation costs would be pretty much zero.

Thats a great idea except there are way to many stores and it is more cost efficient right now to truck the produce. I could see them building a few towers closest to their biggest stores and in that way cut costs way down as they wouldn't have to buy the product or truck it very far. They could grow it themsleves and assure product distribution and no shortages.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Hey, that's not a bad idea. You're a clever little monkey.

invest in my idea, i'll make us BILLIONS!

[DosEquis]

The problem is cost and the yield (though significantly better) is not enough to offset the cost of the building it takes to do this. Essentially the structure is comparable to a parking garage with crazy amounts of plumbing and other equipment. I would be willing to bet that a structure built to be fully functional like the one pictured would be 20-40 million dollars. You'd have to grow and sell a lot of strawberries and lettuce to get enough return on that kind of investment. A regular farm that can produce a lot is in the hundreds of thousands, not tens of millions.

The 'year round' crop production comes with some overhead they are leaving out too. Depending on the crop, there are fertilization needs they will need to address, etc.

Overall i like the idea, and I think it would be great if someone started some of these up. In the end it would take the Bill Gates and Warren Buffetts to build these at first just because of the overhead vs return.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Publius

maybe he should've been growing hydroponic lettuce instead of hydroponic marijuana.

But that raises a good point: individual entrepreneurs can create working hydroponic green houses, so this technology can't be that hard to impliment. Hell, I could see a company like Whole Foods doing it: build a 20 story tower, make the bottom floor the actual store, and make the floors above growing areas. That way they have the freshest of fresh produce available every day in store, and can charge less because transportation costs would be pretty much zero.

They'd have to charge the same, if not more. First because it is the freshest produce possible, people would probably be willing to pay a premium for the stuff. Secondly a 20 story building capable of supporting that is pretty expensive

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Hey, that's not a bad idea. You're a clever little monkey.

You could even charge people to go pick the stuff themselves! Just like people already pay money to cut down Christmas trees or pick strawberries or pumkins.

doooood.

[avsp]

presumably this would use elecric lighting & thus the 'less fossil fuel' claim seems well dodgy. the watts per foot also seems unrealistically low compared to dope farms

# VF greatly reduces the incidence of many infectious diseases that are acquired at the agricultural interface

not if ppl pick their own. insect/disease control in such 'closed', 'false' systems is a huge problem.

the non-use of fertilisers seems a perculiar claim too.

plus whewre is all the soil (if that what its proposed to use), going to come from? the local council here advises against eating veg grown on old industrial brown field sites.

The space arguement is a good one tho IMO.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by avsp

presumably this would use elecric lighting & thus the 'less fossil fuel' claim seems well dodgy. the watts per foot also seems unrealistically low compared to dope farms

I doubt the electricity requirements would be so demanding that a mixture of solar, wind, and methane couldn't provide it. Build a small windmill atop the structure, cover the rest of the roof with solar panels, and use the methane created from the composting as mentioned in the first post. The result would likely be a net ADDITION to the power available on the grid rather than subtraction from it.

not if ppl pick their own. insect/disease control in such 'closed', 'false' systems is a huge problem.

Yea, it would have to be a closed environment with designated pickers employed in order for the insect/disease control to remain workable.

the non-use of fertilisers seems a perculiar claim too.

plus whewre is all the soil (if that what its proposed to use), going to come from? the local council here advises against eating veg grown on old industrial brown field sites.

I'm sure that purely natural fertilizers can be used, and the article only meant the non-use of the fertilizing materials used on large corporate farms currently. And even then it could be recycled within the system after the initial fertilizing through the use of compost (nature's fertilizer! ).

As far as soil ... It may not be the case over there in Britain, but here in the U.S. we have a LOT of soil left over after construction projects and the like. Heck, even here at Restland the small amount of soil that is removed for burials in the cemetery adds up; in the Parks Department area we have a couple of hills of loose soil at least 35 or 40 feet high. That often is sold to farms and other construction sites currently, so selling it to these places would be equally logical.

The space arguement is a good one tho IMO.

Agreed. We already make use of greenhouses in suburban environments, so these large "greenscrapers" are the next logical step in a world that is becoming increasingly urbanized.

The biggest road block to this would be, as has been said in the thread, the start-up costs. But with enough capital pulled together, I think it would most definitely ultimately result in a profitable business that is also eco-friendly and genuinely useful to people in their daily lives.

[thomez]

I just noticed the misspelling in the thread title

[Publius]

Originally Posted by thomez

I just noticed the misspelling in the thread title

it's been bugging me since I first saw the thread.

[Publius]

i see so much potential for this ... i wonder if anyone has filed a patent on the store/tower combo ...

[mididoctors]

Originally Posted by Publius

I doubt the electricity requirements would be so demanding that a mixture of solar, wind, and methane couldn't provide it. Build a small windmill atop the structure, cover the rest of the roof with solar panels, and use the methane created from the composting as mentioned in the first post. The result would likely be a net ADDITION to the power available on the grid rather than subtraction from it.

where does the chemical energy in the hydrogen bonds from the methane come from?

Boris
London

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Publius

it's been bugging me since I first saw the thread.

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Publius

I doubt the electricity requirements would be so demanding that a mixture of solar, wind, and methane couldn't provide it. Build a small windmill atop the structure, cover the rest of the roof with solar panels, and use the methane created from the composting as mentioned in the first post. The result would likely be a net ADDITION to the power available on the grid rather than subtraction from it.

The 8.3 watts/ft2 figure for tomatoes seems a bit low to me, if one wants really thriving lush high yield plants. I suppose advances in lighting tech may have helped since I got involved in this kind of thing. Theres extra energy costs in heating/cooling & ventilation etc

I'm sure that purely natural fertilizers can be used, and the article only meant the non-use of the fertilizing materials used on large corporate farms currently. And even then it could be recycled within the system after the initial fertilizing through the use of compost (nature's fertilizer! ).

But that isnt what the bullet points said, which has set off my b.s. detector. OTOH I'm not claiming huge expertise either, ..., but they've been disengenious IMO.

As far as soil ... It may not be the case over there in Britain, but here in the U.S. we have a LOT of soil left over after construction projects and the like. Heck, even here at Restland the small amount of soil that is removed for burials in the cemetery adds up; in the Parks Department area we have a couple of hills of loose soil at least 35 or 40 feet high. That often is sold to farms and other construction sites currently, so selling it to these places would be equally logical.

Fair enough but if these structures are to be 30-50 stories high, (approx), then thats a lot of soil, probably much more than that displaced by your customers..
My point was that it was unlikely to come from the cities where they say the structures might be built. This further detracts from their 'return land to nature' point

I've other doubts as well,

"* VF may prove to be useful for integrating into refugee camps"
Where they'll be vunerable to attack

"* VF offers the promise of measurable economic improvement for tropical and subtropical LDCs. If this should prove to be the case, then VF may be a catalyst in helping to reduce or even reverse the population growth of LDCs as they adopt urban agriculture as a strategy for sustainable food production."
How so? Will they be built there. & its not as if the land isnt fertile to start with anyway. It could possibly help support huge populations tho' but they're claiming an possible opposite effect anyway

"* VF could reduce the incidence of armed conflict over natural resources, such as water and land for agriculture"
And ppl would not fight over control of the VF facilities or attack those of their enemies if food production capbilty was at a premium? Although it might delay the day it would provide a target if such worries are the point

As someone who has tasted the condensate from grow rooms i can tell you it tastes foul & would need processing

But even so I still like the idea but worry that its being oversold, ..., possibly massively so.

[AVengeance]

One of the coolest things about this tower is that it could exist in areas with below-ideal conventional gardening/farming potential. You might have a problem if you put it in the middle of the desert (water?!?) but because it is somewhat isolated from the surrounding environment, you could put it in a warm-climate area where there is water available, and use solar to drive power. You can't grow tomatoes in sand, but you sure can throw down a solar array on it! Enough solar power could easily provide for much, if not all, of the climate control, water pumping, etc. Some solar power, rather than photovoltaic, could be simple mirrors that push surrounding sunlight into the lower floors of the vertical farm.