2nd hand smokers can kill people who try to avoid them, more bannings are neccesary

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Your drinking does not harm others just by being next to them

It does when they're driving.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It does when they're driving.

...and that is rightly not allowed

[Ardentfrost]

I like the car exhaust metaphor... while sitting in traffic, you are basically killing the person next to you just as much, if not more, than if you were sitting next to them smoking. And far more Americans drive than smoke cigarettes.

Also, since Roonie posted that that EPA report was unbanned in the courts, here's a good list of why it should still be banned:

The EPA Report on Second Hand Smoke (SHS) - The Facts

(It's long, I ain't quoting.)

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I like the car exhaust metaphor... while sitting in traffic, you are basically killing the person next to you just as much, if not more, than if you were sitting next to them smoking. And far more Americans drive than smoke cigarettes.

Sure except smoking is much worse than exhaust.

Environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) was shown to be a much higher source of pollution than an idling ecodiesel engine in regard to particulate matter (PM) emission. In an experiment conducted by the Tobacco Control Unit of the National Cancer Institute, three cigarettes were left smouldering, one after the other, in a 60 m³ garage with a limited air exchange. The cigarettes produced PM indoor pollution exceeding outdoor limits, as well as PM concentrations up to 10-fold that of the idling engine.[70]

Taken from the national cancer institute Comprehensive Cancer Information - National Cancer Institute

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Roonie

Sure except smoking is much worse than exhaust.

Taken from the national cancer institute Comprehensive Cancer Information - National Cancer Institute

So, one cigarette beats one car... what about a couple hours hanging out in a bar compared to daily traffic sitting around hundreds of cars?

Even if you take the 10 fold part out (b/c I know I sit around more than 10 cars everyday), the daily part >>>>> being around cigarette smoke every once in a while.

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

So, one cigarette beats one car... what about a couple hours hanging out in a bar compared to daily traffic sitting around hundreds of cars?

Even if you take the 10 fold part out (b/c I know I sit around more than 10 cars everyday), the daily part >>>>> being around cigarette smoke every once in a while.

Not to get technical because I don't think this is an appropriate metaphor. You are only around maybe 4 cars at the most. 1 in front and two on the sides and one behind. At a dead stop exhaust gases rise due to the fact they are very hot coming off the engine and hot air rises. So at most you might get a whiff of the guy next to the drivers side door. 1 car at the most regardless as how many cars are around you. That decreases when you start moving due to wind, car velocity, aerodynamics, hotter engine when moving, etc. This is also why you don't pass out due to carbon monoxide poisoning while stopped in traffic or moving slowly.

You can think of other things to compare cigarette smoke too, but sooner than later you will have to come to terms that cigarette smoke is very bad for you and much worse than anything else curently out their legal and under human control.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Roonie

Sure except smoking is much worse than exhaust.




Taken from the national cancer institute Comprehensive Cancer Information - National Cancer Institute

It's comparing cigs with ECO-DIESEL. Not sure about you, but they pretty much don't exist anywhere I drive.

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

It's comparing cigs with ECO-DIESEL. Not sure about you, but they pretty much don't exist anywhere I drive.

Actually they used the TDC which is made in Italy. The Jeep Liberty has this engine in it as a few others like VW. Here is the actual study. They call it eco-diesel because it is the next generation diesel supposedly less polluting. My brother has one and it stinks.

Particulate matter from tobacco versus diesel car ...[Tob Control. 2004] - PubMed Result

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Roonie

Not to get technical because I don't think this is an appropriate metaphor. You are only around maybe 4 cars at the most. 1 in front and two on the sides and one behind. At a dead stop exhaust gases rise due to the fact they are very hot coming off the engine and hot air rises. So at most you might get a whiff of the guy next to the drivers side door. 1 car at the most regardless as how many cars are around you. That decreases when you start moving due to wind, car velocity, aerodynamics, hotter engine when moving, etc. This is also why you don't pass out due to carbon monoxide poisoning while stopped in traffic or moving slowly.

You can think of other things to compare cigarette smoke too, but sooner than later you will have to come to terms that cigarette smoke is very bad for you and much worse than anything else curently out their legal and under human control.

The only reason we have to try to compare it to anything is because people get their panties in a bunch about something they could easily get away from. The car thing is good because you can't get away from it. When I'm sitting in traffic (around hundreds of cars because I live in downtown Atlanta, by the way... cars under you, on top of you, and the interstates have walls and tunnels... they're like trenches of bad air), I have no choice but to sit there and breathe the exhaust... if you're sitting in a bar and someone lights up, go somewhere else, or eat outside, or, as previously mentioned, start your own bar where you don't allow patrons to smoke.

Making metaphors is trying to come at the debate from another angle since people refuse to accept that when you go into a privately owned establishment you are subjecting yourself to whatever the establishment allows... be it titties, beer, smoke, patchouli, gay dudes, fattening foods, or whatever else. Cigarette smoke, as much as you'd like to think it is, isn't like just spraying bullets wildly into the air. Until places start chaining people to the bar and blowing smoke in their face, this is a nonissue that has been blown way out of proportion by people who are pissed they have to choose where they go due to their personal preference of not smoking.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Making metaphors is trying to come at the debate from another angle since people refuse to accept that when you go into a privately owned establishment you are subjecting yourself to whatever the establishment allows... be it titties, beer, smoke, patchouli, gay dudes, fattening foods, or whatever else.

With in the bounds of what society (or those in power) find/s acceptable. This has always been the case, and always will be. You can disagree with it if you like, but that is how people work.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Cigarette smoke, as much as you'd like to think it is, isn't like just spraying bullets wildly into the air. Until places start chaining people to the bar and blowing smoke in their face, this is a nonissue that has been blown way out of proportion by people who are pissed they have to choose where they go due to their personal preference of not smoking.

I disagree that I should have make another choice because people choose to do stupid things, and hence I have zero problem with it being banned.

I don't like lots of other things that are personal preferences, but since they are not stupid, just different I do not care.

[Thorgrim]

alcohol is good for you in small quantities...cigarettes...hmmm

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

alcohol is good for you in small quantities...cigarettes...hmmm

I was walking by a TV in the building in which I work that is usually tuned to FNN for some unknown reason and they were reporting on how even a single daily glass of beer can reduce brain function.

Despite that being a silly story, if it follows the same path that cigarettes has in the past 20 years, we'll be going through another prohibition a scant more than a century after the last one ended.

Although, I will ask just out of curiosity, have you seen something that says alcohol is good in small quantities? I've heard a daily glass of red wine is good b/c of the antioxidants, but never alcohol in general.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I was walking by a TV in the building in which I work that is usually tuned to FNN for some unknown reason and they were reporting on how even a single daily glass of beer can reduce brain function.

Despite that being a silly story, if it follows the same path that cigarettes has in the past 20 years, we'll be going through another prohibition a scant more than a century after the last one ended.

Although, I will ask just out of curiosity, have you seen something that says alcohol is good in small quantities? I've heard a daily glass of red wine is good b/c of the antioxidants, but never alcohol in general.

I've read, far back enough that I don't remember exactly where...that a healthy mixed drink with like a shot of...vodka I believe...was good every other day

And slow drinking a light beer is good for you, any very slight damage actually rebuilds

However, a small glass of red wine with your dinner is the best way to go, and it significantly improves your long-term health

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Although, I will ask just out of curiosity, have you seen something that says alcohol is good in small quantities? I've heard a daily glass of red wine is good b/c of the antioxidants, but never alcohol in general.

http://www.therightmix.gov.au/pdfs/HealthBenefits.pdf