Speaking of appeasement.... news out of North Korea

[thomez]

Well as everyone knows, Bush and Republicans have repeatedly said that we should not appease our enemies. Everyone has heard this line, right?

I guess that doesn't apply to our "Axis of Evil" member country of North Korea, or is the Bush White House just tired of neo-conservative failures?

Tentative deal calls for halt in N. Korea nuclear program

Updated 2/13/2007 6:04 AM ET
By Barbara Slavin, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — North Korea reached a tentative agreement with five other nations Tuesday on initial steps toward ending its nuclear weapons program, U.S. negotiator Christopher Hill said.

The agreement would shut down a program that built and tested a nuclear device and amassed plutonium for as many as a dozen other weapons. Initially, however, that plutonium and any completed nuclear weapons would remain in North Korea.

The deal, reached in Beijing by negotiators from North Korea, the United States, China, Japan, Russia and South Korea, requires a final OK by the six governments.

Under the agreement's terms, North Korea would shut down a nuclear reactor that has been producing plutonium for four years, according to a senior Bush administration official and an Asian diplomat. Inspectors from the United Nations' nuclear watchdog agency would return to North Korea within 60 days to verify that the reactor has been shuttered, they said. In return, North Korea would get a million tons of fuel oil a year.

The two officials, both of whom had been briefed on details of the agreement, declined to be identified because it has not gotten final approval from their governments.

After a fifth day of negotiations in Beijing, Hill said the agreement is only a first step toward the ultimate goal of dismantling North Korea's nuclear weapons program. "I'm encouraged that we might be able to make a real step forward on the denuclearization issue," he said.

North Korean diplomats made no immediate comment. The parties resume talks Tuesday in Beijing.

Supporters and opponents of the agreement both say it resembles a 1994 accord, known as the Agreed Framework, which traded economic and diplomatic concessions for a freeze of the North Korean nuclear program and a pledge of eventual denuclearization. Under that deal, North Korea received 500,000 tons of fuel oil annually.

The 1994 pact collapsed in 2002 when North Korea admitted working to enrich uranium, another potential source of bomb fuel.

John Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. until December, said on CNN that the agreement is "a very bad deal" that would undercut sanctions against North Korea and make the administration "look weak ... dealing with Iran (when) it needs to look strong." He said President Bush should reject the deal because it is no better than the 1994 agreement: "If we (are) going to cut this deal now, it's amazing we didn't cut it back then."

Jack Pritchard, a former U.S. negotiator with the North Koreans in both the Clinton and Bush administrations, said the latest deal initially leaves North Korea "a declared nuclear-weapon state with a stock of plutonium for more."

James Kelly, assistant secretary of State for Asia in Bush's first term, said he was optimistic. "It's a mistake to prematurely trash" the agreement, Kelly said. "It's not a triumph yet. It's a first step."

David Albright, head of the Institute for Science and International Security, a Washington think tank, said North Korea has produced enough plutonium for as many as 12 bombs. It tested a nuclear device for the first time in October.

Tentative deal calls for halt in N. Korea nuclear program - USATODAY.com

Ok, let me break this down, cause it's a good one.

#1 - the first thing we are doing wrong is talking to North Korea - they are a part of the Axis of Evil and diplomacy is ill advised with nations that can't be trusted... right?

#2 - the deal consists of them shutting down their reactor (which they did already, see below) in exchange for a million tons of fuel oil a year... if that isn't appeasement, I don't know what is

#3 - both supporters and opponents of this deal say it resembles the Clinton-era proposal .... yes the same one that every Republican on earth has blasted for years as an example of the failure of appeasement

#4 - all that king neocon #1 John Bolton cares about is the US looking weak.... in the eyes of Iran.... WHAT THE FUCK DOES IRAN HAVE TO DO WITH THIS? my god the neocons are hilarious as they try to somehow make every issue in the world related to the Iranians

and finally, I guess we made this deal.... BUSH HAS APPEASED THOSE ON THE AXIS OF EVIL LIST!

North Korea told the United States it shut down its nuclear reactor, the State Department said Saturday, hours after a ship cruised into port loaded with oil promised in return for the country's pledge to disarm.

If confirmed by a UN inspection team headed to the Yongbyon reactor, the shutdown would be the North's first step in nearly five years toward de-nuclearization.

"We welcome this development and look forward to the verification and monitoring of this shutdown by the International Atomic Energy Agency team," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said in a statement.

North Korea: Nuclear reactor has shut down | Jerusalem Post

I look forward, hell I can't wait, to hear the Bush supporters explain this one!

[Stylerod]

Not sure how this resembles the Clinton deal, since Clinton was hugely responsible for them being able to create nuclear weapons. Bush is trying to undo what Clinton did.

But yeah, fuck the NK. Hopefully we are at least selling them the oil for like $120 a barrel.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Not sure how this resembles the Clinton deal, since Clinton was hugely responsible for them being able to create nuclear weapons. Bush is trying to undo what Clinton did.

But yeah, fuck the NK. Hopefully we are at least selling them the oil for like $120 a barrel.

what? Clinton did the exact same thing, made an agreement with them for fuel oil... they weren't supposed to fuck with nukes... they just broke the agreement

how is Bush trying to undo anything.... except making a new similar agreement and he is doubling the oil given away?

we aren't selling them the oil, we are giving it to them in exchange for good behavior... it is appeasement, exactly what they have said a trillion times does not work

1) How can you say we should'nt be talking to them? One of the biggest criticisms coming from the left is that he's too isolationist, too go it alone and that we shoudl ALWAYS talk about things.

2) I do not like this because I do view it as appeasement, they're going to stop producing uranium nad shut down the reactor? What just like they did 12 years ago? riiiiiight we're being foolish and this ordeal comes across as nothing more than bullshit positioning for 2008 IMO.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Not sure how this resembles the Clinton deal, since Clinton was hugely responsible for them being able to create nuclear weapons. Bush is trying to undo what Clinton did.

But yeah, fuck the NK. Hopefully we are at least selling them the oil for like $120 a barrel.

Uh, it's exactly what Clinton did, and exactly what Bush said we shouldn't be doing - talking to those we have disagreements with.

Bush isn't trying to undo anything, he's finally taken someone's advice who realized that diplomacy which is overshadowed by threats and troop movements isn't diplomacy, it's simply a threat..

I've posted many times that the only nations who have ever given up their nuclear programs have done it willingly, through negotiations and careful diplomacy, usually with many incentives to do so. None have ever been forced to give it up.. and it's unlikely any ever will.

This is a good move, hopefully as conditions improve for the people of North Korea they can even begin to open up their society.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

1) How can you say we should'nt be talking to them? One of the biggest criticisms coming from the left is that he's too isolationist, too go it alone and that we shoudl ALWAYS talk about things.

I was being sarcastic... that is always the neocon point of view... don't speak with the evildoers. No diplomacy.

Supposedly the IAEA will be monitoring the reactor so we'll know if it is fired back up again or not.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by thomez

what? Clinton did the exact same thing, made an agreement with them for fuel oil... they weren't supposed to fuck with nukes... they just broke the agreement

how is Bush trying to undo anything.... except making a new similar agreement and he is doubling the oil given away?

we aren't selling them the oil, we are giving it to them in exchange for good behavior... it is appeasement, exactly what they have said a trillion times does not work

Clinton gave them aid specifically to build nuclear power plants.

And you are right. Bush shouldn't be giving them anything except a big middle finger.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Clinton gave them aid specifically to build nuclear power plants.

really????

Agreed Framework between the United States of America and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh yes, the plan was to build power plants that could not be used to make bombs... seems like an intelligent thing to do

Originally Posted by thomez

I was being sarcastic... that is always the neocon point of view... don't speak with the evildoers. No diplomacy.

Supposedly the IAEA will be monitoring the reactor so we'll know if it is fired back up again or not.

I'm all for talking to them, but I firmly believe bush is doing this solely to position the reps for 2008...again that is my opinion. I personally do not have much confidence in the IAEA

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Clinton gave them aid specifically to build nuclear power plants.

And you are right. Bush shouldn't be giving them anything except a big middle finger.

Clinton gave them nuclear fuel so they would have no need to develop the enrichment process on their own.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

I'm all for talking to them, but I firmly believe bush is doing this solely to position the reps for 2008...again that is my opinion. I personally do not have much confidence in the IAEA

I don't think it is going to help them, basically all have spoken out against appeasement, then the Republican president flip flops and appeases North Korea to stop their nuke program.... I don't see how they can publicly support it or how it helps them in 08.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Lesson for the world: Hurry up and get nukes so that you get the North Korea treatment instead of the Iraq treatment.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Lesson for the world: Hurry up and get nukes so that you get the North Korea treatment instead of the Iraq treatment.

We should never give anyone anything just so they will play nice with their neighbors.

If they don't want to be civil, we(and our allies) should cut them off economically. If they want to start acting like part of the civilized world, we will start selling them goods or buying from them again.

[Ardentfrost]

I've been saying for a long time that we should be helping all countries ready for nuke technology... like, let them hire our nuke engineers and whatnot. Instead we hold onto it and heavily regulate it like it's some prized possession when we could be teaching them how to make clean nuke plants, bypassing that whole "weapons-grade plutonium" thing.

Every country needs power. Trying to restrict them from making nuke plants isn't going to work.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Clinton gave them nuclear fuel so they would have no need to develop the enrichment process on their own.

For the 100th time, the technology Clinton gave NK was useless for their nuke program they developed

Originally Posted by thomez

I don't think it is going to help them, basically all have spoken out against appeasement, then the Republican president flip flops and appeases North Korea to stop their nuke program.... I don't see how they can publicly support it or how it helps them in 08.

Because it seems that half of this country is obvlious to what the hell is going on.