worst presidents

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I can understand the whole anti-Lincoln thing because it destroyed most of modern day libertarian ideology having a practical approach, as everyone accepts that the federal government is securely supreme over the states

It was bound to happen, Lincoln just happened to be president at the time - the States wanted to be like little countries, they didn't respect the federal government's decisions and were very hostile over a persons rights, there are a couple supreme court cases where it was established that the bill of rights does not apply on the State level (Barron vs Baltimore, 1833)

This isn't libertarian, its destructive to individual rights and the unity of the nation, war was going to happen no matter what.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by thomez

Because you have a trade deficit with one country does not automatically mean you have an overall trade deficit - you just need to sell more to other countries where you will have a trade surplus. A trade deficit with China is not the end of the world, the protectionism to avoid that trade deficit will almost certainly do more harm. The ideal solution is to find products that you can sell to China and everywhere else that China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc etc either cannot produce or cannot produce cheaper (at the same quality). In the United States, with the standard of living we expect, etc ... this means innovation, technology, investment, and overall specialization. We aren't going to make money producing certain things in the US anymore, that is just a fact. We need to accept that fact and find other things that we can do better than other places and import them goods.

Even at that, an overall trade deficit is still not the end of the world.

Well our trade deficit in 2005 was 725 billion dollars. Meaning we imported 725 billion dollars more than we export. Total imports was 1.764 trillion dollars in 2005. That means 1.76 trillion dollars in goods are not being made here and not creating jobs here. I understand the benefits of getting things cheaper from other countries and I understand the idea of trade with countries. There is a huge difference between free trade and fair trade. Overall the trade policies and labor policies, starting with reagan, have been selling US skilled labor out.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by thomez

Because you have a trade deficit with one country does not automatically mean you have an overall trade deficit - you just need to sell more to other countries where you will have a trade surplus. A trade deficit with China is not the end of the world, the protectionism to avoid that trade deficit will almost certainly do more harm. The ideal solution is to find products that you can sell to China and everywhere else that China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc etc either cannot produce or cannot produce cheaper (at the same quality). In the United States, with the standard of living we expect, etc ... this means innovation, technology, investment, and overall specialization. We aren't going to make money producing certain things in the US anymore, that is just a fact. We need to accept that fact and find other things that we can do better than other places and import them goods.

Even at that, an overall trade deficit is still not the end of the world.

Not going to work. We have a trade deficit with everyone one we trade with we cannot make up the deficit else where. We even have a huge one with Mexico because of Nafta it used to be the other way around. China and Japan will not really let us trade with them fairly so we cannot catch up that way. The trade deficit is an IOU it has to be paid with our trade, but they don't want enough of our stuff. So we have to pay for it with our assets or by selling our debt. That is where the national debt comes in. China has the dollors because of the trade deficit to finance our national debt so we borrow from them to pay for the federal spending our great politicians love to spend even when we don' have it. We are in great shape a huge debtor country. Government spending is a big and needed part of our economy so the Chinese are financing the great economy we are suppose to have also. I know I have posted this a few times also.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

There is a huge difference between free trade and fair trade. Overall the trade policies and labor policies, starting with reagan, have been selling US skilled labor out.

The US economy cannot build that extra 1.7 TRILLION dollars worth of stuff. We are already at 4-5% uninflation, the only way would be to bring in a lot of immigrants, make everyone work more hours or make production jump 10%.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Not going to work. We have a trade deficit with everyone one we trade with we cannot make up the deficit else where. We even have a huge one with Mexico because of Nafta it used to be the other way around.

The trade deficit is an IOU it has to be paid with our trade, but they don't want enough of our stuff. So we have to pay for it with our assets or by selling our debt. That is where the national debt comes in.

wtf ?

First off NAFTA helped INCREASE the manufacturing and exporting from the US to Mexico.

Second. NO. And China owns very little of our debt. The majority is owned by other govt agencies (SSA holds the most) US banks, retirement accounts and individuals own a large chunk as well.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

wtf ?

First off NAFTA helped INCREASE the manufacturing and exporting from the US to Mexico.

Second. NO. And China owns very little of our debt. The majority is owned by other govt agencies (SSA holds the most) US banks, retirement accounts and individuals own a large chunk as well.

Our trade with Mexico has increased but mexico's trade with us has increased dramatically. We had a huge trade surplus with them and now they have a huge and growing trade deficit with them. China is buying huge amounts of our debt now because they have no where to spend all the dollors they are getting from their trade surplus. I have heard that now, in 2007, the government's budget deficit is largely being financed by China, and Japan owns a big share of our debt because of the gigantic trade deficit we have with them.

[thomez]

I don't understand how trade deficit = owning our debt. I can't make the mental connection.

[motivez]

I'd love to see some analysis on why Bush isn't the first on everyone's list

I can understand the Lincoln thing since he did a lot of bullshit stuff as President that he shouldn't have been able to do, but when you add up everything Bush has done.. my god, what makes these other people worse?

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

It was bound to happen, Lincoln just happened to be president at the time - the States wanted to be like little countries, they didn't respect the federal government's decisions and were very hostile over a persons rights, there are a couple supreme court cases where it was established that the bill of rights does not apply on the State level (Barron vs Baltimore, 1833)

This isn't libertarian, its destructive to individual rights and the unity of the nation, war was going to happen no matter what.

Elected at the eve of the shit storm!

He kept the Nation whole even if angry and resentful. It reminds me of something about needing to walk a mile in another mans shoes.....

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'd love to see some analysis on why Bush isn't the first on everyone's list

I can understand the Lincoln thing since he did a lot of bullshit stuff as President that he shouldn't have been able to do, but when you add up everything Bush has done.. my god, what makes these other people worse?

Fanatical obsession of the moment by an extreme political class? Are some people upset that we don't have riots in the steets?

[thomez]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'd love to see some analysis on why Bush isn't the first on everyone's list

I can understand the Lincoln thing since he did a lot of bullshit stuff as President that he shouldn't have been able to do, but when you add up everything Bush has done.. my god, what makes these other people worse?

Jackson set the precedent for shitting all over the Constitution.

Lincoln - civil war bs

FDR - internment camps, socialist policies, greatly extended the reach of the federal government

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'd love to see some analysis on why Bush isn't the first on everyone's list

I can understand the Lincoln thing since he did a lot of bullshit stuff as President that he shouldn't have been able to do, but when you add up everything Bush has done.. my god, what makes these other people worse?

He certainly is a bad president - if only because of his stubbornness and inability to see nuance in a situation - but clearly I cannot put him #1, we've had a president that ended reconstruction holding back civil rights for an entire people for almost a 100 years (President Hayes - I said Johnson, before I was wrong). Another that got our national capital almost burnt to the ground (Madison - I think he is a great man but his presidency was not all that). And a couple Presidents before Lincoln who did absolutely nothing to stop rising tensions that lead to a bloody civil war.

In the end, getting the capital burned, not even attempting to stop an eminent civil war and holding back rights to a whole race of people is worse to me than Bush, but he is still pretty bad

[thomez]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Another that got our national capital almost burnt to the ground (Madison - I think he is a great man but his presidency was not all that).

that was Jefferson's fault as much as Madison's ... Jefferson was the Francophile... Jefferson was anti-bank.... Madison was his big buddy but he got thrown into a bad situation because of the previous Jefferson presidency

[RMNIXON]

All I did was have some Campaign people bug the "Hooker" line at the DNC and then try to keep that stupid blunder quiet!

[motivez]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Fanatical obsession of the moment by an extreme political class? Are some people upset that we don't have riots in the steets?

An extreme political class?

Way to just brush off everything Bush has done with a sad diversion attempt

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Our trade with Mexico has increased but mexico's trade with us has increased dramatically. We had a huge trade surplus with them and now they have a huge and growing trade deficit with them.

so what ? Both our economies are growing. That is a good thing.

China is buying huge amounts of our debt now because they have no where to spend all the dollors they are getting from their trade surplus. I have heard that now, in 2007, the government's budget deficit is largely being financed by China, and Japan owns a big share of our debt because of the gigantic trade deficit we have with them.

look up.
China has a very small portion of the debt.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'd love to see some analysis on why Bush isn't the first on everyone's list

I can understand the Lincoln thing since he did a lot of bullshit stuff as President that he shouldn't have been able to do, but when you add up everything Bush has done.. my god, what makes these other people worse?

Bush isn't that bad compared to some of the others. Wilson, Lincoln, and FDR have all done more damaging things to our country.

Pierce [wiki] was a also a pretty shitty president. He was only elected because Nathaniel Hawthorne (author of The Scarlet Letter) wrote his biography. Pierce was such a shitty president that his own party voted against him in the subsequent election. Incidentally, Barbara Bush's maiden name is Barbara Pierce, and she is an indirect descendant [wiki] of Franklin Pierce.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Oh, and William Henry Harrison was definitely the best president this country has ever seen. No new federal legislation was created while he was in office, and he only engaged in one official act while he was a president. But then again, he delivered his inaugural address while it was cold and windy, developed pneumonia, and died one month after taking his oath of office. [wiki]

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

so what ? Both our economies are growing. That is a good thing.
look up.
China has a very small portion of the debt.

What does trade deficits have to do with national debt?