Most under rated heavyweight boxer of all time???

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Well who do you think it is?

Jack Dempsey? Fought bare knuckle in many of his fights, known as a hard hitter ruthless puncher and fought in some cases beyond 25 rounds 66-6-11 is an impressive record given the circumstances of the day.

Lennox Lewis? Largely overlooked especially in the USA. He was a true boxer and perhaps the most strategic fighter of all time. He was big, strong and very fast and could fire up his axe of a right hand on an instant. Lennox lost two fights that many view as incidental losses. Coincidental big punches that happened to catch Lennox at the perfect time. Lennox got rematches with both individuals who beat him and he promptly asserted himself as the better fighter in all accounts. Perhaps what he will also be remembered for is the absolute total ass pounding he handed Mike Tyson even with a severely sprained hand/wrist. His final fight record was 44-2-1 with 32 KO's and numerous 3 knock down wins.

Rocky Marciano? 49-0 with 43 KO's when he came along he was known as the premier power hitter in the sport. Dominating opponents with power and a chin of steel. Only 9 of his fights ever made it to round 10 or later.

Joe Louis? Known by many as the brown bomber he was widely regarded in his day has the most powerful puncher to ever box. He defended his title successfully 25 times and has been recognized as the best puncher of all time and even the best fighter of all time. With a record of 69 and 3 statistically he is one of the most impressive fighters of all time.

George Foreman? Big George Foreman, regarded by few as the best fighter of all time and in many cases he doesn't even crack the top ten list? Foreman has only been knocked out once that was by Ali in a fight that would be surrounded in controversy for years after it was over. All of Foremans other losses were in decision three of those losses after his comeback when he was beyond the age of 40. Foreman is regarded by most as the hardest puncher in the history of the sport with unbelievable power. He could consistently lift opponents off the canvas with uppercuts and fold opponents with hooks so powerful it would send them across the ring. To top it all off he retook the title from Michael Moorer at age 44 in 1994. He got out of boxing in 1997 when he lost his belts. His final record 79 and 5 with a ridiculous 68 knockouts.

Evander Holyfield? Evander the Real Deal Holyfield regarded by many as having the best chin in the sport or second only to Ali. Holyfield was ruthlessly quick with a moderate amount of power. His sheer determination helped this undersized heavyweight challenge and defeat numerous fighters with 30, 40 or 50+ pound weight advantages. Holyfield has absorbed some incredible beatings, including three fights with Bowe, great bouts with Buster Douglas and a great 12 round fight with Big George Foreman that he won in Decision. As of late Evander has decided to move back into the heavyweight arena and is working towards another title shot. His record of 42-8-2 is very misleading. Four of those losses were from fighting injured with substantial shoulder issues. Evander is back and looks strong today.

Other? (please specify)

jimeigh · 07-31-2007, 07:43 PM

YouTube - Emanuel Augustus- highlight and brief interview

YouTube - Augustus Highlights

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by jimeigh

YouTube - Emanuel Augustus- highlight and brief interview

YouTube - Augustus Highlights

Those guys look more like middle weights...

thomez · 07-31-2007, 07:53 PM

as far as under-rated, I would say Lennox. The rest are all well respected and rated pretty fairly IMO.

Publius · 07-31-2007, 08:00 PM

James Braddock was a heavyweight, wasn't he?

He may not be the most underrated now because of the movie, but he was certainly extremely underrated at the time of his comeback career, and a lot of people had completely forgotten about him before the book/movie.

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

James Braddock was a heavyweight, wasn't he?

He may not be the most underrated now because of the movie, but he was certainly extremely underrated at the time of his comeback career, and a lot of people had completely forgotten about him before the book/movie.

Thats a good point. Braddock was definately a great fighter.

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

as far as under-rated, I would say Lennox. The rest are all well respected and rated pretty fairly IMO.

I dunno, big George definately gets screwed in this regard, Holyfield is easily top 10 of all time IMO and when you consider his size (maybe I shouldn't) I think he's probably number 1. Hell even today in his old age he struggles to make weight, still for the most part comes it at 215, 216 or 217 almost making him a light heavy.

Joe_Cool · 07-31-2007, 08:22 PM

I don't pay enough attention to boxing anymore to have this argument. There might be some guy who's had 10 undercard fights who's better than all of them but never got his shot, for all I know.

I will say, though, that Holyfield, Lewis, and Foreman were all great and underappreciated fighters. Holyfield and Lewis both beat the snot out of Tyson (probably the most OVERrated heavyweight of all time), and he flat out RAN from Foreman, even at > 40.

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, " Georgie,You'll never believe this but, Fuckin' Tyson is scared shitless of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fightin' that Fuckin' animal, if you love the motherfucker so much, you fight him!'"

Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!

Why We Never Saw Foreman-Tyson

Joe_Cool · 07-31-2007, 08:26 PM

Also, by default, athletes from "the old days" are alternately dismissed out of hand and deified by fans and analysts. They're either unbeatable gods or else ignored because what we see in the here and now is naturally the best.

I'm guilty of it myself. I've never brought up Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, or John Sullivan in a "greatest fighter ever" discussion.

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

I don't pay enough attention to boxing anymore to have this argument. There might be some guy who's had 10 undercard fights who's better than all of them but never got his shot, for all I know.

I will say, though, that Holyfield, Lewis, and Foreman were all great and underappreciated fighters. Holyfield and Lewis both beat the snot out of Tyson (probably the most OVERrated heavyweight of all time), and he flat out RAN from Foreman, even at > 40.

Why We Never Saw Foreman-Tyson

Thats a good article and dead on. Tyson later admitted to being scared shitless of big George and you're right Tyson probably is the most over rated champ ever. He fought in the weakest heavyweight division of all time (the 1980s) and when he finally got a taste of real power and someone with good boxing skills (James Buster Douglas) he got his ass whipped.

When he decided to fight Holyfield both times he got his ass beat and had to resort to ridiculoust tactics to stop fight number 2. When Tyson fought Lennox Lewis he was completely and totally obliterated by a Lennox Lewis who hurt his hand midway through the third round.

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

Also, by default, athletes from "the old days" are alternately dismissed out of hand and deified by fans and analysts. They're either unbeatable gods or else ignored because what we see in the here and now is naturally the best.

I'm guilty of it myself. I've never brought up Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, or John Sullivan in a "greatest fighter ever" discussion.

The thing is all of those guys are pretty good. In my opinion its safe to say Jack Dempsey is NOT the best ever and shouldn't even be considered. However Marciano at 49-0 is pretty damn impressive despite the heavyweight division being a bit weak at times during his reigh. Joe Louis? The guy fought in 27, yes TWENTY SEVEN title bouts including 25 successful defenses, a record that could very well stand our entire lives.

Joe_Cool · 07-31-2007, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The thing is all of those guys are pretty good. In my opinion its safe to say Jack Dempsey is NOT the best ever and shouldn't even be considered. However Marciano at 49-0 is pretty damn impressive despite the heavyweight division being a bit weak at times during his reigh. Joe Louis? The guy fought in 27, yes TWENTY SEVEN title bouts including 25 successful defenses, a record that could very well stand our entire lives.

Yeah those old school guys were pretty hardcore. I remember reading some stuff about Sullivan that's just unbelievable. For example,

As Sullivan barely got up from his corner to start the 76th round, Kilrain's second, Mike Donovan, threw in the sponge.

In The Shadow of John L. Sullivan

Holy crap! Granted boxing was new and not fully established as a sport yet, but 76 rounds???????? I don't know that I could STAND UP for 76 rounds, let alone fight that long. That alone puts him on any "great fighters" list.

6SpeedTA95 · 07-31-2007, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

Yeah those old school guys were pretty hardcore. I remember reading some stuff about Sullivan that's just unbelievable. For example,

In The Shadow of John L. Sullivan

Holy crap! Granted boxing was new and not fully established as a sport yet, but 76 rounds???????? I don't know that I could STAND UP for 76 rounds, let alone fight that long. That alone puts him on any "great fighters" list.

Exactly, I couldn't punch the heavybag/speed bag for 76 rounds much less get punched by some dude.

Donkey® · 07-31-2007, 11:18 PM

Lennox Lewis fought the best of his time...and the best of his time were shitty. I would vote for George Foreman. If it weren't for the SINGULAR talent of Ali, Foreman would have been a God.

Stylerod · 08-01-2007, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Thats a good article and dead on. Tyson later admitted to being scared shitless of big George and you're right Tyson probably is the most over rated champ ever. He fought in the weakest heavyweight division of all time (the 1980s) and when he finally got a taste of real power and someone with good boxing skills (James Buster Douglas) he got his ass whipped.

When he decided to fight Holyfield both times he got his ass beat and had to resort to ridiculoust tactics to stop fight number 2. When Tyson fought Lennox Lewis he was completely and totally obliterated by a Lennox Lewis who hurt his hand midway through the third round.

When Tyson was younger he came across as not stupid. He could talk boxing without stammering. I remember an interview with him and he was saying how he watched fight films of all the best boxers in history to try to learn from them. After the interview I actually thought he was a pretty smart guy. And I figure he watched enough Foreman films to realize the guy was an animal was was almost impossible to knock down.

thatguyoverthere · 08-01-2007, 09:27 AM

Well, it's pretty obvious (to me at least) that Foreman's smiling nice guy act is just an act. I bet he's a lot meaner when the cameras aren't rolling. And he is probably the most underrated. As was stated above, if it wasn't for Ali, Foreman would probably be revered much more today.

I think Holyfield is the most overrated fighter, though. I saw him fight here in Atlanta (must have been 1993) and I totally thought he was over the hill even way back then. The only time he tried to really let his punches fly was when the other guy was already down on his knee. Lots of pushing and clenching, I thought it was terrible. I haven't watched him fight lately, but he has to look like a train wreck. If he's losing fights that he should have won because of injuries, he probably shouldn't be fighting

6SpeedTA95 · 08-01-2007, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

When Tyson was younger he came across as not stupid. He could talk boxing without stammering. I remember an interview with him and he was saying how he watched fight films of all the best boxers in history to try to learn from them. After the interview I actually thought he was a pretty smart guy. And I figure he watched enough Foreman films to realize the guy was an animal was was almost impossible to knock down.

Tyson wasn't stupid, I dont think anyone would argue that, he knew his sport, but he had the benefit of fighting in a weak division. When things got good again he was basically a nobody.

6SpeedTA95 · 08-01-2007, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

Well, it's pretty obvious (to me at least) that Foreman's smiling nice guy act is just an act. I bet he's a lot meaner when the cameras aren't rolling. And he is probably the most underrated. As was stated above, if it wasn't for Ali, Foreman would probably be revered much more today.

I think Holyfield is the most overrated fighter, though. I saw him fight here in Atlanta (must have been 1993) and I totally thought he was over the hill even way back then. The only time he tried to really let his punches fly was when the other guy was already down on his knee. Lots of pushing and clenching, I thought it was terrible. I haven't watched him fight lately, but he has to look like a train wreck. If he's losing fights that he should have won because of injuries, he probably shouldn't be fighting

Holyfield retired, had shoulder surgery to fix the injuries and rested up for 18 mos. His comeback has been pretty impressive thus far despite the fighters he's fought.

Publius · 08-01-2007, 10:15 AM

my grandfather was a pretty capable amateur boxer back in the late 1930s before going into WWII (born in 1922). He grew up watching and listening to Braddock fight, he said Braddock was probably the toughest boxer he's ever seen. That's probably the only reason I knew who he was, prior to the Cinderella Man movie.