Deja Vu All Over Again: US Continues To Lose Arms In Iraq

[RMNIXON]

Can not "account" does not mean lost, does not mean out of U.S. Military hands, out of friendly Iraqi hands, and certainly does not mean in the hands of the enemy. This is a huge bureaucracy and paper shufling outfit in the middle of a War. If you don't support this war don't pretend you want it run well on paper.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Rojam

I like all the banter from people who have no clue what's really happening on the ground. The US did know exactly who the equipment was issued to. I know, because I was there. Weapons and other equipment items were shipped to warehouses and issued to Iraqi units, who signed for the equipment. Not sure what happened to the records after I left, but they existed while I was there.

The biggest problem was the Bush administration pushing us to re-equip the same units over and over again, even when (according to our records) the units were fully equipped accordingn to the TOE. I even got an e-mail from someone (and I wish I would have kept the e-mail) that POTUS (Pres of the US) directed us to deliver weapons to the MOD when we had refused because it was not a military unit.

Oh, by the way - military and civilian folks in Iraq are generally quite competent.

There is probably stuff in boxes all over the place that has just not been inventoried properly and sent up the chain of command. We are talking about Iraq Units trying to conform to our standards. To suggest this stuff is being used against out troops without evidence is a political driven leap of failure beyond comprehension. That makes me sick and outraged!

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by Rojam

I like all the banter from people who have no clue what's really happening on the ground. The US did know exactly who the equipment was issued to. I know, because I was there. Weapons and other equipment items were shipped to warehouses and issued to Iraqi units, who signed for the equipment. Not sure what happened to the records after I left, but they existed while I was there.

The biggest problem was the Bush administration pushing us to re-equip the same units over and over again, even when (according to our records) the units were fully equipped accordingn to the TOE. I even got an e-mail from someone (and I wish I would have kept the e-mail) that POTUS (Pres of the US) directed us to deliver weapons to the MOD when we had refused because it was not a military unit.

Oh, by the way - military and civilian folks in Iraq are generally quite competent.

Any guess as to why the military didn't provide the records to the GAO? (Thanks for your insight and your service, and welcome to the board.)

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Can not "account" does not mean lost, does not mean out of U.S. Military hands, out of friendly Iraqi hands, and certainly does not mean in the hands of the enemy. This is a huge bureaucracy and paper shufling outfit in the middle of a War.

Can not "account" means "do not know where they are."

Can not "account" means "cannot find them."

Can not "account" means "cannot provide records of who received the arms."

Can not "account" means "cannot provide records of dates arms were shipped."

Can not "account" means "cannot provide number of arms shipped."

Christ on a crutch, haven't you ever taken a retail shipment?

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

If you don't support this war don't pretend you want it run well on paper.

My taxpayer dollars are paying for this war. I am not pretending when I expect it to be run well.

My country is fighting in this war. I am not pretending when I want my country to win.

Innocent civilians are in the middle of this war. I am not pretending when I want them not to suffer.

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

There is probably stuff in boxes all over the place that has just not been inventoried properly and sent up the chain of command. We are talking about Iraq Units trying to conform to our standards. To suggest this stuff is being used against out troops without evidence is a political driven leap of failure beyond comprehension. That makes me sick and outraged!

So you think that the 190,000 arms and body armor is just as likely sitting around in boxes that just didn't get checked in right, as it is being used against civilians, American, and Allied troops?

Now THAT is a politically driven leap of logic that defies comprehension.

I honestly can't decide which is worse: that you think nearly 200,000 munitions would just go sitting around unused in the middle of a war zone, or that our military is so dumb as to not actually be using those arms and wearing that body armor.

Gee, the arms are just sitting around in boxes, lost in the paper shuffling bureaucracy, no one knows where they are... gosh, one could almost characterize those arms as... lost!

It is very likely US produced arms that cannot be accounted for in Iraq have been used against civilians, our Allies, and our own troops.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

So you think that the 190,000 arms and body armor is just as likely sitting around in boxes that just didn't get checked in right, as it is being used against civilians, American, and Allied troops?

Since you know better, why don't you tell us where they are? Oh, wait. You can't. His speculation is no less valid than yours.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

Since you know better, why don't you tell us where they are? Oh, wait. You can't. His speculation is no less valid than yours.

So the missing 190K weapons that were "misplaced" in a war zone are probably just sitting on mantles all over Iraq as collectors items.

Yeah, it's not likely at all that these are being used to kill our people.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Rojam

I like all the banter from people who have no clue what's really happening on the ground. The US did know exactly who the equipment was issued to. I know, because I was there. Weapons and other equipment items were shipped to warehouses and issued to Iraqi units, who signed for the equipment. Not sure what happened to the records after I left, but they existed while I was there.

The biggest problem was the Bush administration pushing us to re-equip the same units over and over again, even when (according to our records) the units were fully equipped accordingn to the TOE. I even got an e-mail from someone (and I wish I would have kept the e-mail) that POTUS (Pres of the US) directed us to deliver weapons to the MOD when we had refused because it was not a military unit.

Oh, by the way - military and civilian folks in Iraq are generally quite competent.

I also thank you for your service to our country and welcome you aboard. My question to anyone is why did the bush administration push these weapons on Units that did not need them. Did they possible want to give the military suppliers more work and profit, the very people who give money to their campaigns.

[JaJae]

We lose weapons in Iraq like a 2 year old loses their crayons. This is getting absurd. I breezed over the article, but I saw nothing of accountability.

If you are entrusted with a large cache of weapons like this and you "lose" them with no explanation of what may have happened to them there's a big problem. A problem that in my opinion may warrant criminal negligence against someone.

Whether the weapons were truly "lost" or just the records are bad, someone needs to be accountable. I want SOMEBODY to know where our money is going, who we are arming and where our weapons are. End of story. I don't even care so much if the public doesn't know everyone, but the military sure as hell should.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally Posted by Scrum

So the missing 190K weapons that were "misplaced" in a war zone are probably just sitting on mantles all over Iraq as collectors items.

Yeah, it's not likely at all that these are being used to kill our people.

So you do know where they are? You'd better call the DOD and let them know. You'll be a hero!

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

So you do know where they are? You'd better call the DOD and let them know. You'll be a hero!

Yeah, it's a total leap to assume that 190K lost weapons ended up in the hand of people who would use them against our troops.


Funny how you seem to know where the weapons aren't.

[Joe_Cool]

Originally Posted by Scrum

Yeah, it's a total leap to assume that 190K lost weapons ended up in the hand of people who would use them against our troops.


Funny how you seem to know where the weapons aren't.

I'm sorry, you've made a mistake. YOU are the one who claims to know where they are. I didn't say anything like that.

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

I'm sorry, you've made a mistake. YOU are the one who claims to know where they are. I didn't say anything like that.

Nice try at diversion. Please show me where he or I said that we KNOW where the arms are. I will eagerly await your response.

Oh wait, you CAN'T show me where he or I say we KNOW where the arms are, because we never said that.

You seem to like to chide people for allegedly not knowing how to read, don't you?

Both of us said it is more LIKELY that they are being used by insurgents than sitting around in boxes. And, it IS more likely that the arms are being used against civilians and Allied and American troops than they are sitting around in boxes unused. That's just fucking common sense. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either naive or a polically partisan tool.

And, if the arms ARE actually just sitting around in boxes, yet no one can locate them, they are still LOST.

Only one poster here has said that the weapons were NOT lost: RMNixon. I suggest you ask HIM where those weapons are.

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by JaJae

We lose weapons in Iraq like a 2 year old loses their crayons. This is getting absurd. I breezed over the article, but I saw nothing of accountability.

If you are entrusted with a large cache of weapons like this and you "lose" them with no explanation of what may have happened to them there's a big problem. A problem that in my opinion may warrant criminal negligence against someone.

Whether the weapons were truly "lost" or just the records are bad, someone needs to be accountable. I want SOMEBODY to know where our money is going, who we are arming and where our weapons are. End of story. I don't even care so much if the public doesn't know everyone, but the military sure as hell should.

Thank GOD there is one conservative leaning poster here on this board who doesn't feel the need to play word games or intentionally mischaraterize other posters opinions on this particular matter in a desperate and futile attempt to dodge responsibility, and who also actually understands and appreciates the meaning of the words "account" and "accountability!"

[Rojam]

What it means is that 100'00's of thousands of pieces of equipment have been issued to the ISF (Iraq Security Forces) and after it was issued, the Iraqis have no record of where it is. The US has records of what Iraqi units were issued the equipment, but once out of US control there are little to no records.

The US re-equips ISF at a rate of 112% every 2 months - meaning that 12% of equipment is being replaced every 2 months. There is at least 1 instance of that I know of where equipment issued to an Iraqi unit was used by a suicide bomber against an American checkpoint. This is the only one that I know of that can be confirmed. The "white SUV's" used by death squads are very familiar - they are the white Toyotas issued to the Iraqi Police Forces. I am absolutely certain that equipment issued to ISF is being used against Iraqis and coalition forces.

The lack of planning by the Pentagon and the administration created an environment where everything had to be done with extreme haste and now it's coming back to bite us. It was pretty clear in '04 and '05 that MOD and MOI were arming themselves against eachother, but the push was to build the ISF, build the ISF, build the ISF.

[hsmith]

Pretty fucking pathetic, nothing new from the leadership of the Bush administration.

Pathetic, our soldiers will be murdered with our own weapons.