Democrats & Good News In Iraq

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

LOL, he was humbled...Durbin said wherever US troops go

He said militarily we are making progress in Iraq. This is the man who every weeks gets in front of the Senate and talks about how bad Iraq is going. He goes over to Iraq and gets an interview on CNN and literally shocks them by saying we're making military progress.

The military front in Iraq is doing better. Politically there are still many challenging issues. However, the fact that so many people are going to Iraq and coming home saying we're making headway on the military front should not be ignored by our media and by our politicians.

The fact that so many people are arguing against it is strange to me. So many people are going to Iraq saying the same thing and now Durbin and Casey. The Democratic leadership is changing their wording by saying Iraq is a political failure. It all adds up plain as day. I don't understand why the reasoning behind putting that down. There's plenty of evidence to support it and nothing other than armchair bloggers saying the opposite.

[SoFlaJDM]

thor... you really shouldn't waste your time

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

He said militarily we are making progress in Iraq. This is the man who every weeks gets in front of the Senate and talks about how bad Iraq is going. He goes over to Iraq and gets an interview on CNN and literally shocks them by saying we're making military progress.

The military front in Iraq is doing better. Politically there are still many challenging issues. However, the fact that so many people are going to Iraq and coming home saying we're making headway on the military front should not be ignored by our media and by our politicians.

The fact that so many people are arguing against it is strange to me. So many people are going to Iraq saying the same thing and now Durbin and Casey. The Democratic leadership is changing their wording by saying Iraq is a political failure. It all adds up plain as day. I don't understand why the reasoning behind putting that down. There's plenty of evidence to support it and nothing other than armchair bloggers saying the opposite.

I hope you realize that he highlighted how the entire Iraqi government is failing

More importantly, any other answer than the one he gave would have been "Our American soldiers are failing us in Iraq" Ofcourse he has to say the military is making progress! It's political suicide to say otherwise, and I'm not even totally against that statement

Are we 0.00001% better off, strictly militarility, than we were in January, ignoring the deaths? I'd have to go with yes

It's just that the death's don't justify the means, the only thing we've gained is possibly quickening Al Qaeda becoming uncomfortable, which was going to happen anyway and was already happening anyway

You want to see Military Progress, here
Battle of Mulhouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And tons of other examples of "one-day victories"

Now you tell me whether you'd call that a "success"

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I hope you realize that he highlighted how the entire Iraqi government is failing

Yes, he pointed out how the political end is doing poorly. I've said that a million times in this thread. I understand that. I realize that. I've SAID IT..> REPEATEDLY!! Why can't other things about Iraq also be true AND stated? Why can't other people even hint to the notion that perhaps from a military standpoint in Iraq we're starting to see some progress. That's the kicker and the exact point of my making this thread.

Any form of good news coming from Iraq is bad for the Democrats and they simply don't want to hear it. They'd prefer to dwell in the negativity because that's what helps them politically. I've gone to page two already and not one anti-war poster has even hinted to the idea that perhaps the people going to Iraq and coming home saying the military is starting to see some headway even exists. The conversation gets changed immediately to the political aspect and further negativity. The views expressed in this thread prove my point.

I am not saying, Looky Here George Bush is my champion and Iraq is going swimmingly. I'm saying look, a lot people are going to Iraq who were normally against admitting any progress in Iraq are now saying we're making progress on the military front. I give the Democrats full credit for that progress. Why can't we even talk about it without changing the subject? That's what gets me. It's taboo to give credit where credit is due in Iraq because for some reason it's thought to harm the Democrats politically.

[Thorgrim]

If you completely ignore deaths, we've always been making military progress in Iraq, even when Bush said that in retrospect we weren't doing well

I mean, can you think of one battle we lost in Vietnam or Iraq? We win everytime, woohoo, progress!

But as a famous Vietnamese negotiator said when talking to the Americans about the end of the Vietnam war "That is irrelevant"

As long as young iraqi males are being killed by themselves or us at exceptionally high rates, (or fleeing the country) the recruitment pool for the insurgency is weakening, eventually they'll run out of able-bodied men...that's progress

Or another way to look at it, it was "military progress" after the first battle of Fallujah, but then we left it and went back to the terrorists, now it's all fucked up over there and it seems pretty apparent that former "fundamentalist terrorists" still control the city, they just call themselves "anti-Shia" terrorists instead

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

If you completely ignore deaths, we've always been making military progress in Iraq, even when Bush said that in retrospect we weren't doing well

I mean, can you think of one battle we lost in Vietnam or Iraq? We win everytime, woohoo, progress!

But as a famous Vietnamese negotiator said when talking to the Americans about the end of the Vietnam war "That is irrelevant"

As long as young iraqi males are being killed by themselves or us at exceptionally high rates, (or fleeing the country) the recruitment pool for the insurgency is weakening, eventually they'll run out of able-bodied men...that's progress

Or another way to look at it, it was "military progress" after the first battle of Fallujah, but then we left it and went back to the terrorists, now it's all fucked up over there and it seems pretty apparent that former "fundamentalist terrorists" still control the city, they just call themselves "anti-Shia" terrorists instead

Vietnam, Battle of Fallujah... none of your post has anything to do with current events or the current opinions of politicians, generals on the ground or reporters who have recently visited Iraq. Keep harping on Vietnam and Fallujah if it helps the Democrats. I'll stick to the opinions of just about every politician, general and reporter who has been to Iraq within the past few weeks.

I mean, can you think of one battle we lost in Vietnam or Iraq? We win everytime, woohoo, progress!

[Thorgrim]

I'm glad you're sticking to the opinions of others and not making any yourself

Where do you think we stand now, and if the surge stays intact, how long before victory, what glorious achievements await us in the upcoming month as the surge keeps going?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'm glad you're sticking to the opinions of others and not making any yourself

I am making an opinion myself. I'm making an informed opinion based on the information given to me from people who have been to Iraq recently and have absolutely no reason to lie. People who have always been against admitting any form of progress coming forward and now saying the opposite.

I consider that to be of a much stronger source of information to draw my own conclusions over the harping on Vietnam and Fallujah and non-current events or professional opinions. To each his own I guess.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I am making an opinion myself. I'm making an informed opinion based on the information given to me from people who have been to Iraq recently and have absolutely no reason to lie. People who have always been against admitting any form of progress coming forward and now saying the opposite.

I consider that to be of a much stronger source of information to draw my own conclusions over the harping on Vietnam and Fallujah and non-current events or professional opinions. To each his own I guess.

Could you please SPELL OUT THAT CONCLUSION?

All you do is point to articles and then complain about critics

If I pointed to an article that blasted a pro-choice group, and then gave some disparaging remarks at pro-choice critics...THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME PRO-LIFE...infact I've given you no opinion whatsoever

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What? Links?

this is exactly what the threadstarter is talking about, do you really have no idea that Al Anbar aka "the sunni triangle" has been relatively quiet for several months?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Or another way to look at it, it was "military progress" after the first battle of Fallujah, but then we left it and went back to the terrorists, now it's all fucked up over there and it seems pretty apparent that former "fundamentalist terrorists" still control the city, they just call themselves "anti-Shia" terrorists instead

when was the last time you heard about a large battle in Falluja or insurgency activity against US forces. That place has been a ghost town for some time.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Could you please SPELL OUT THAT CONCLUSION?

All you do is point to articles and then complain about critics

If I pointed to an article that blasted a pro-choice group, and then gave some disparaging remarks at pro-choice critics...THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME PRO-LIFE...infact I've given you no opinion whatsoever

You have given opinion and by attacking me directly and my opinions you are essentially providing a point of view that is preferable to my own. I've already provided my opinion throughout this thread. I think I've been fairly clear. I'm not sure what needs clarification.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

You have given opinion and by attacking me directly and my opinions you are essentially providing a point of view that is preferable to my own. I've already provided my opinion throughout this thread. I think I've been fairly clear. I'm not sure what needs clarification.

Well I think you've been unclear, so either re-state your full opinion on the forming, continuing and future of the surge or call me an idiot, your decision

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

this is exactly what the threadstarter is talking about, do you really have no idea that Al Anbar aka "the sunni triangle" has been relatively quiet for several months?

IF that was even true, which the news doesn't reflect, why is that considered a success? Could they not be attacking in other provinces for a reason? Could they have shifted THEIR battle plan? Are you saying they are gone and will never return?

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

IF that was even true, which the news doesn't reflect, why is that considered a success? Could they not be attacking in other provinces for a reason? Could they have shifted THEIR battle plan? Are you saying they are gone and will never return?

So if the fighting has not stopped "everywhere" we have no success? That is what enemies do when they are on the run, shift their battle plan. The Mole in the Hole notion has been is getting weaker and weaker as we plug up more holes!

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

IF that was even true, which the news doesn't reflect, why is that considered a success? Could they not be attacking in other provinces for a reason? Could they have shifted THEIR battle plan? Are you saying they are gone and will never return?

Administration Points to Improved Situation in Ramadi as Sign of Progress - US News and World Report

the news do reflect it. We have worked agreements with local sunnis to fight foriegners, and attacks against US forces have gone way down.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Administration Points to Improved Situation in Ramadi as Sign of Progress - US News and World Report

the news do reflect it. We have worked agreements with local sunnis to fight foriegners, and attacks against US forces have gone way down.

This same thing was being touted back in 06. What happened then?


ThreatsWatch.Org: InBrief: Blowback from the Ramadi Attack

Originally Posted by article

Blowback from the Ramadi Attack
Sunnis point fingers at al-Qaeda for deadly attack on police recruits
By Bill Roggio

The city of Ramadi is the last bastion of the insurgency and al-Qaeda in Anbar province. Yesterday’s deadly attack on prospective police recruits waiting outside the recruiting center may go a long way to erode that support.

[Thorgrim]

Sgt. Jon E. Bonnell Jr., 22, of Fort Dodge, Iowa, died Aug. 7 from wounds suffered while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq. He was assigned to1st Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.

DefenseLink News Release: DoD Identifies Marine Casualty

Lance Cpl. Cristian Vasquez, 20, of Coalinga, Calif., died Aug. 2 from wounds suffered while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq. He was assigned to1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.

DefenseLink News Release: DoD Identifies Marine Casualty

That's just the past week, and just the deserts of Anbar...excluding Baghdad and other cities which are always considered part of the Sunni Triangle

[JaJae]

The fact that we're in the Anbar province and there isn't violence every day is signs of progress. Thanks for the heads up on that.