Phony surge spin; The surge is failing

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The point is, of COURSE it's going to be against anything good in Iraq...it's what they WANT.

They are political activists with an agenda. No, we can't trust their articles as 'truth'. That's why I won't answer your poll.

If you use the word so broadly, then everyone is a political activist except for those completely apathetic to the point of not even knowing what each party stands for...

If you keep your words intact, but put in Gen. Petreaus, you will find they fit exactly, and by your own standards, you can't trust his "report" this September

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

If you keep your words intact, but put in Gen. Petreaus, you will find they fit exactly, and by your own standards, you can't trust his "report" this September

He's an activist?!!

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

He's an activist?!!

According to you he is

[Thorgrim]

In the second attack, a local tribal leader in Albu Khalifa, a village west of Baghdad, was gunned down by militants who broke into his home late Saturday, police said.

Sheik Fawaq Sadda' al-Khalifawi had recently joined the anti-al-Qaida alliance in Anbar, said a police officer in the town of Karmah, 50 miles west of Baghdad. The police officer spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of more reprisals.

Iraq attacks target anti-al-Qaida Sunnis - Yahoo! News

More grim news

[Thorgrim]

BAGHDAD - A Muslim imam dropped his cloak to the sidewalk. It was a signal for the gunmen to move.

They surrounded the top Iraqi security official in a north Baghdad district. Iraqi military vehicles — commandeered by other Shiite militiamen — screeched into a cordon, blocking his exit. A gun was put to his head.

Brig. Gen. Falah Hassan Kanbar, a fellow Shiite, managed to escape when his bodyguards pulled him into a vehicle that sped down an alley.

Details of the Aug. 5 ambush emerged this week in interviews with Kanbar, U.S. military and intelligence officials. It remains unclear whether the thugs sought to kill Kanbar or simply intimidate him, but suspicions over the source of the brazen assault pointed in just one direction: the powerful Shiite armed faction known as the Mahdi Army and its increasingly unpredictable trajectory.

The vast Mahdi network — ranging from hardcore fighting units to community aid groups — is emerging as perhaps the biggest wild card as Iraq's U.S.-backed government stumbles and the Pentagon struggles to build a credible Iraqi security force to allow an eventual U.S. withdrawal.

Just a few months ago, the Mahdi Army and its leader, firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, were seen as reluctant — but critical — partners with Iraq's leadership. Al-Sadr agreed to government appeals to lessen his anti-American fervor and not directly challenge the waves of U.S. soldiers trying to regain control of Baghdad and surrounding areas.

But now, the once-cohesive ranks of the Mahdi Army are splintering into rival factions with widely varying priorities.

Some breakaway guerrillas are accused by Washington of strengthening ties with Iranian patrons supplying parts for powerful roadside bombs — which accounted for nearly three-quarters of U.S. military deaths and injuries last month. The devices suggest that Shiite militias could replace Sunni insurgents as the top threat to American troops.

Other Mahdi loyalists are seeking to expand their footholds in the Iraqi military and police, frustrating U.S. attempts to bring more Sunni Muslims into the forces as part of national reconciliation goals.

Shiite militia grows bolder in Iraq - Yahoo! News

Fuck...even worse news

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

According to you he is

I never said such a thing

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

Do you actually have any information that discredits the information in the article?

You don't have to discredit the information in the article. It has no correlation to the performance of our military in Iraq. We will always lose soldiers and the political outlook of Iraq isn't being debated. What people are claiming by saying we're making advancements militarily is that the nation as a whole is changing for the better. People feel safer and more of Iraq is free from violence. Nothing in his article refutes what people have been saying. It's just more rhetoric by an anti-semite extremist who seems to have a political interest in the failure of Iraq.

[Thorgrim]

BAGHDAD — The expressway skirting the Amil neighborhood in Baghdad is only a couple of miles from Mahmoud Mekki's home, but it might as well be a hundred.

To reach it, Mekki must pass checkpoints guarded by Iraqi police commandos who he says are really Shiite Muslim militiamen trying to drive Sunni Muslims out of Amil.

So Mekki, a Sunni, remains holed up in his home, dependent on sympathetic Shiite neighbors to pick up his groceries and run other errands.

Iraqi and American military officials say incidents of sectarian "cleansing" in Baghdad have decreased since a U.S. military clampdown began in February, but what is happening in Amil and neighboring Bayaa belies the claim.

Since May, Iraqi police say, more than 160 bodies have been found in Amil and Bayaa -- men without identification, usually shot and bearing signs of torture, hallmarks of sectarian death squads.

On many days, the number of corpses found in the two neighborhoods account for half of those picked up across the capital. Before the war, Amil and Bayaa were middle-class neighborhoods where Sunnis and Shiites lived easily among one another. Now, not only are they mainly Shiite, but they have become prime territory for Shiite militias looking to expand into the surrounding Sunni-dominated areas.

Representatives of Al Mahdi, the militia loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada Sadr, blame the violence on Sunni extremists linked to the group Al Qaeda in Iraq. Sunni leaders blame Al Mahdi men. Residents say that Iraqi security forces are complicit in the violence, and that there aren't enough U.S. forces to stop it. U.S. and Iraqi military officials say the problem isn't as bad as they say.

At a news conference June 20, Iraqi Brig. Gen. Qassim Musawi, a spokesman for the Baghdad security plan, declared the situation in both neighborhoods "under control." U.S. Army Maj. Kirk Luedeke, a spokesman for the American unit deployed in the areas, said the violence was "not a cause for alarm." He said the number of bodies being found had dropped considerably since January.

...

The Iraqi army is very weak in facing the terrorists. They are only setting up checkpoints on the main roads and can't get inside the dangerous neighborhoods," said the official, who did not want his name used for fear of being targeted for his affiliation with the Shiite cleric.

He denied that Al Mahdi was trying to drive out Sunnis and said the group offered social assistance to residents of both sects.

"You can't call the people militias," he said. "They are only civilians defending themselves from Al Qaeda."

Some Shiites agree, and their view of the situation underscores the dilemma most Iraqis face as they weigh their craving for security against their distaste for militias


Sectarian 'cleansing' in Baghdad - Los Angeles Times

Wow, talk about some real solid proof that they can't even secure Baghdad! And 5 more Americans were just killed in Baghdad...and the Iraqi government is still in recess...jees talk about ZERO progress

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

In other words, no.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

In other words, no.

No in other words, the article doesn't discredit the notion that there is military progress. Show me what part of the article proves that we aren't making military progress in Iraq? Show me anything that proves this guy is more credible than the Brookings Institute, Senators Casey & Dodd, the general the Democrats chose to lead in Iraq - Petraeus. If any of that can be done, I'll concede this guy isn't a complete and total hack that has no credibility or relevance to discuss this issue. It's just another liberal extremist blogger who likes to point out death tolls in Iraq and regurgitate negative media. He makes the strongest argument over Iraq being a political mess. I've never denied that.

The fact is his article and the OP, event he title insinuates that there is "phony surge spin" regarding the effectiveness of the surge when there is absolutely none. Nowhere in his article does he show where there is any "spin" going on. Petraeus himself said the progress is minor. People going over there aren't saying things are completely better. And they're all saying politically Iraq is a mess. The fact that people harp on such a discredible source such as this to further try to prove an unproven agenda of our military not making some progress in Iraq is disheartening.

We have two options here on who to believe on this issue. We can take the views of an anti-semitic extremist blogger or we can take the views of just about every Democrat, liberal media reporter and the general on the ground in Iraq that the Democrats voted in unanimously. I can't understand any logical argument that would draw to preferring the views and credibility of the former.

My posts may read as just , but they are founded on far more credible and reliable first-hand information than this pathetic person with a twisted political agenda.

[motivez]

All I'm seeing is personal attacks on the writer of the article trying to discredit him as a "blogger" ... like he has no expertise in the area

Here's his education history:

1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles
1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan
1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan
1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan
1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan

I think he's more than a simple "liberal blogger", sorry. He knows more about the middle east and Islamic culture, etc, than anyone on these forums.. by far.

Lastly, I reject your "options" entirely. I am not going to listen ONLY to a partisan General who goes on right wing radio shows to help sure up faltering Republican Party support for this clusterfuck failure of a war in the face of all the other evidence that points to no substantial progress being made..

Wishful thinking does no one any good at this point.

Without any political solutions on the horizon, I see no reason the small amounts of military progress that are made (and then negated by rising violence elsewhere) mean anything substantial is going to change.

Our military has performed admirably, they're not going to lose an engagement to the rag tag insurgency, we have superior firepower and technology, but the bottom line is you can't force democracy and peace and all that jazz on a people more interested in killing each other over petty religious differences than working out their problems.

I think most everyone who's reasonable about Iraq realizes that you need a political solution (or at least the DESIRE for one) in order for there to be some stability.. and again, there's not one on the horizon. The largest Sunni bloc recently quit the coalition government. It's a huge setback.

The surge could have worked at the start of the war, but Bush and Republicans didn't want to listen to the idea that this might be be a decade+ long commitment, costing billions of dollars and thoundands of lives.. they thought we could waltz in, topple Saddam, everyone would dance and sing kum ba yah, and then we could leave.. they didn't bother planning for the situation we're in now, and that's primarly why we're in it.

Shinseki was correct, and it's unfortunate for those who've lost their lives that he wasn't listened to.

[Thorgrim]

It's rather simple:

The former is not a radical extremist, he simply dislikes right-wing politicians in Israel, indeed basically every jewish friend I've made in Philadelphia also disagrees with many of Israeli's right-wing policy's and favor anti-Likud positions...either I am surronded by self-loathing Jews who regularly attend services, or Dr. Cole is not a radical extremist

The latter is paid to boost morale of his soldiers in a campaign and also to listen to his commander in chief who is set on the continuation of the campaign

Also the article is full of facts:
-Everything regarding the political COLLAPSE, they are well listed and undisputed
-Statistics showing every July has had a down-turn, as the heat is ridiculous...anyone with a brain can see that the high-mark months for violence against coalition forces has almost always been in the coldest months in Iraq...and this August would be a record breaker if more than 87 coalition forces died, we are roughly on track to break that record
-This July was also worse than last July regarding iraqi deaths, many months after the golden mosque was bombed
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/GRA163911.htm
-Insurgent attacks are at an all time high
-Prominent Iraqis are being killed more often, see not only the article but news i've posted since
-Bombings and mass executions are still taking place inside the "secured" city of Baghdad, with the full surge in effect
-Water systems are failing across the country
-The electricity grid is failing and neared total collapse only a few days ago

I don't even need the article, I can just point out these facts

So one guy disgracing the US military by refusing to follow basic orders, and showed shiny right-wing talking points that Iraqi casualties were going down down down ever since the surge started
Of course, besides being a jackass disgrace, he was also a god damn moron

BAGHDAD -- At least 1,652 civilians were killed in Iraq in July, one-third more than in the previous month, according to figures compiled from three Iraqi ministries.

July's toll is also slightly higher than the number for February, when the US launched a "surge" aimed at flooding the Iraqi capital with troop reinforcements to stem Iraq's sectarian bloodletting.

In that month, 1,626 civilians were killed according to the ministries' figures.

Civilian deaths in Iraq up one-third in a month - Region - Middle East Times

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts...the surge has failed the WH's benchmarks, and all the facts and statistics show that it's failing in basically every measurement you can think of except some out of context statements and on-and-off war cheerleaders op-eds

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

All I'm seeing is personal attacks on the writer of the article trying to discredit him as a "blogger" ... like he has no expertise in the area

I don't care about his educational history, the guy is a quack, all you have to do is read some of his works to figure that out. He's along the lines of Ward Churchill (Whose resume I am also not impressed with).

Juan Cole, Media -- and MESA -- Darling - Campus Watch

But the organization out-did itself when, in November 2004, it elected Juan Cole as its next president. Cole has a string of impressive titles, being a professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the University of Michigan, editor of the International Journal of Middle East Studies, and author of a weblog focusing on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. He emerged in 2003 as a Middle East expert for the media (The New York Times,[1] Washington Post,[2] National Public Radio)[3] and for influential leftist bloggers such as Josh Marshall, Brad Delong, or Mark A. R. Kleinman.[4]

But what the academics validated – and the major media are drawing on – is one strange professor. Cole's view is shaped by his fundamental belief in a conspiracy of Jewish "neo-conservatives" that largely runs U.S. policy toward the Middle East. His recurrent theme is that a nebulous ‘pro-Likud' cabal controls the U.S. government from a small number of key positions in the Executive Branch. He never names the leaders or organizations behind this fabulously clever and utterly secret conspiracy but vaguely associates it with AIPAC, MEMRI, and any prominent Jew in the Bush administration.

The guy is a radical, left wing, anti-semitic douchcanoe. And quite honestly I've read a few of his "blogs" and he's pretty much over the deep end if ya know what I mean. His bias, bigotry and conspiracy theories are all over the net. It isn't hard to figure out this guy is missing a few screws and isn't a reliable source for what's going on the Middle East, especially for current events. This guy has a warped political agenda that makes him a completely unreliable source.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I don't care about his educational history, the guy is a quack, all you have to do is read some of his works to figure that out.

Juan Cole, Media -- and MESA -- Darling - Campus Watch


The guy is a radical, left wing, anti-semitic douchcanoe. And quite honestly I've read a few of his "blogs" and he's pretty much over the deep end if ya know what I mean. His bias, bigotry and conspiracy theories are all over the net. It isn't hard to figure out this guy is missing a few screws and isn't a reliable source for what's going on the Middle East, especially for current events. This guy has a warped political agenda that makes him a completely unreliable source.

Strange how you can just post attacks but no links...its almost as if its baseless

I understand, the points are overwhelming, so attack the source without any links to anything objectionable

And why wouldn't a neo-conservative government alligned to overthrow Saddam and transform the middle east refuse to ally itself with a select group of Israelis who would like the same thing...?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Strange how you can just post attacks but no links...its almost as if its baseless

In the quote you hit to reply there is a link Within that link there are over a dozen examples "with links." How is that baseless and no links

It's hard to debate when my posts are being reinvented to be whatever they are wanted to be. I think anyone who cares enough can read this thread and the evidence and see that Juan Cole is a complete and total quack along the lines of a Ward Churchill and his "blogs" are founded in the realm of complete absurdity. I don't see a point in playing around in the circle jerk anymore.

Anyone who wants to believe Juan Cole as a reliable source as an interpreter of current events in Iraq over the other sources is more than welcome.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

In the quote you hit to reply there is a link Within that link there are over a dozen examples "with links." How is that baseless and no links

It's hard to debate when my posts are being reinvented to be whatever they are wanted to be.

so im supposed to go to that link, through other links, and pour over documents myself to find evidence to support your theory?

Better yet, I should go on google, enter his name, and reply to every single link that comes about him, that would be the most thorough defense right?

Your claim is baseless until you provide your own quotes, with a link that can let them be read in context

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

so im supposed to go to that link, through other links, and pour over documents myself to find evidence to support your theory?

Better yet, I should go on google, enter his name, and reply to every single link that comes about him, that would be the most thorough defense right?

Your claim is baseless until you provide your own quotes, with a link that can let them be read in context

If you're going to ask for links the least click on them rather than complaining about receiving them. Within the link you'll see an article with a dozen cited examples of Juan Cole absurdity. That is what you were asking for...

This is getting so absurd. I could care less if someone doesn't want to click the link, but at least acknowledge that its there. This is becoming such a circle jerk, I really am done. If anyone wants to see a fraction of the crap Cole has said they'll click the link for themselves and see all of the quotes provided.