Barry Bonds: Discuss

Donkey® · 08-08-2007, 05:57 AM

So he's hit #756. Personally, I am tired of the bandwagon * boys. It's nothing but hate. Let's see some proof he has EVER tested positive for ANYTHING. Let's see the rules against steroids during this so called "steroid era." Let's see all the other players on steroids put up "impossible" numbers. Let's see the steroid free urine of all the pitchers Bonds faced. The bottom line...he has always been one hell of a player and hit his peak later in life...I have seen it happen in all sorts of sports. His stats say all sorts of things when twisted and turned to form a conclusion based on someone's agenda. Until someone can show me FACT that he cheated...give the man his props.

I do hate baseball though.

avsp · 08-08-2007, 06:27 AM

In Bonds' sport do they have random, year-round, snap drug tests that require players to notify authorities of their whereabouts at all times?

If so, then its a 'ceasars wife' attitude & the onus is completely switched round & he must 'prove' that he isnt 'using'

On the recent Tour de France Rassmussen was kicked off, (by his team under sponsorship pressure IIUC), not coz he'd tested postive, nor that he'd missed a test but because he'd lied about his whereabouts during off season training.

In truth his case seems to have been used as a 'football' in a political battle between rival governing cycling bodies. But this 'ceasars wife' attitude is commonplace in world Athletics, UK Soccer & other sports.

I think this is a fair enough way to look at things. But I think other views are too, even 'lets all get really dangerously drugged up to improve performance'

The point is that in any sport the rules should be clear & applied equally to all. It may be that a given sport might benefit from an historical amnesty so that the situation can be understood accurately & thus a fresh start made

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 09:08 AM

I don't believe that there was any required testing for baseball during the season. There might have been some tests during spring training but the players knew ahead of time, so all they had to do was stop for several weeks and then start juicing again. It was wide spread in the sport, and I personally do not doubt that Bonds used steriods to some extent.

There is no question, however, that Bonds is an excellent batter. Steriods can't give you skill. Steriods won't help you hit a curve ball. So I think we atleast need to give him credit for being a skilled athlete.
What steriods WILL do, is give you another 20 or 30 feet of distance on your long shots. So a hit that might have bounced off the wall and ended up being a double, turns into a home run. It's that reason that I don't really give him credit for breaking the record. He's a great player and a skilled hitter, one of the best of our time.. but he's no Hank Aaron.

Donkey® · 08-08-2007, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't believe that there was any required testing for baseball during the season. There might have been some tests during spring training but the players knew ahead of time, so all they had to do was stop for several weeks and then start juicing again. It was wide spread in the sport, and I personally do not doubt that Bonds used steriods to some extent.

And your proof besides "gut feeling?" I have a "gut feeling" that Aaron use a corked bat.

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

There is no question, however, that Bonds is an excellent batter. Steriods can't give you skill. Steriods won't help you hit a curve ball. So I think we atleast need to give him credit for being a skilled athlete.
What steriods WILL do, is give you another 20 or 30 feet of distance on your long shots. So a hit that might have bounced off the wall and ended up being a double, turns into a home run. It's that reason that I don't really give him credit for breaking the record. He's a great player and a skilled hitter, one of the best of our time.. but he's no Hank Aaron.

Even if he was on steroids, he played the game within the rules and you claim he shouldn't get credit for breaking the record?

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And your proof besides "gut feeling?" I have a "gut feeling" that Aaron use a corked bat.

Even if he was on steroids, he played the game within the rules and you claim he shouldn't get credit for breaking the record?

Steriods are not within the rules. It goes against what the game is.

Oh and proof?

SI.com - MLB - Shadows reveals truth behind Barry Bonds' steroid use - Tuesday March 7, 2006 4:49PM

Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to Game of Shadows, a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters at the forefront of reporting on the BALCO steroid distribution scandal.
...
The authors compiled the information over a two-year investigation that included, but was not limited to, court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, confidential memoranda of federal agents (including statements made to them by athletes and trainers), grand jury testimony, audiotapes and interviews with more than 200 sources. Some of the information previously was reported by the authors in the Chronicle. Some of the information is new. For instance, in an extensive note on sourcing, the authors said memos detailing statements by BALCO owner Victor Conte, vice president James Valente and Anderson to IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky were sealed when they first consulted them, but have been unsealed since.

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 09:33 AM

Bonds in 1983.

Bonds now

Publius · 08-08-2007, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Bonds in 1983.
[imghttp://espn.go.com/media/radio/2004/1203/photo/bondsjr_i.jpg[/img]

Bonds now
[imghttp://www.sptimes.com/2002/10/08/photos/sp-barry.jpg[/img]

That really isn't proof of anything though ... I've seen people that decide to focus on building muscle mass go from the 83 bonds to the now bonds, in terms of musculature, in just a couple of years of dedicated strength training.

24 years is a long time, he could absolutely have completely naturally built up that muscle mass over years of weight training.

That said, I have two things to add to this thread:

1.) I don't care about whether or not Bonds was on steroids
2.) I don't care about Baseball

Donkey® · 08-08-2007, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Steriods are not within the rules. It goes against what the game is.

Oh and proof?

SI.com - MLB - Shadows reveals truth behind Barry Bonds' steroid use - Tuesday March 7, 2006 4:49PM

The word of "so and so" isn't proof. Also, if he was on steroids, and they are illegal, where are the tests showing him as positive?

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

The word of "so and so" isn't proof. Also, if he was on steroids, and they are illegal, where are the tests showing him as positive?

it's not just thier word. did you read the post? There are mountains of evidance, including records from the company that adminsitered the steriods.
That is proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" as far as I am concerned.

Go read the article I posted.
Is there 100% concrete proof that can not be refuted? no. But Like I said , given the evidance that does exist, I find it hard to come to any other conclusion.

Scrum · 08-08-2007, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

The word of "so and so" isn't proof. Also, if he was on steroids, and they are illegal, where are the tests showing him as positive?

When the soviet union fell, many of their doctors who worked for the state making olympic super-beasts came over to the US and kept working on steroids and hormones that could beat tests. The USSR was far more advanced in that field than we were.

They are constantly 6 months ahead of being detected.

Scrum · 08-08-2007, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Publius

That really isn't proof of anything though ... I've seen people that decide to focus on building muscle mass go from the 83 bonds to the now bonds, in terms of musculature, in just a couple of years of dedicated strength training.

24 years is a long time, he could absolutely have completely naturally built up that muscle mass over years of weight training.

That said, I have two things to add to this thread:

1.) I don't care about whether or not Bonds was on steroids
2.) I don't care about Baseball

Please point me to the workout that will let me gain 3 hat sizes.

DosEquis · 08-08-2007, 11:12 AM

If he used a performance substance that is not considered legal by the sport, they need to find out how long and strip him of his statistics back to that point. To me it is the highest form of disrespect to the record books to allow this to go through.

Case closed.

That being said, I could give a shit about baseball. I like college sports better than professional anyway.

nbiggershaft · 08-08-2007, 01:48 PM

I don't get the high and mighty attitude. You think hank Aaron didn't and wouldn't have used steroids? Babe Ruth? I remember they interviewed Buck O Niel about it a few years back. He said it wasn't anything new, trainer would come in and say, "here boss, let me rub this into your shoulder, it will heal you up faster. Or here, lemme give you this it will help you train." It's common place, pros take supplements, steroids, works gym hours the rest of us couldn't take. There's no room for us to sit on our asses on the couch and question it. It's Bond's sport more than it's ours.

Publius · 08-08-2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Please point me to the workout that will let me gain 3 hat sizes.

Bonds was 19 in 1983. Most people are done growing by that age, but there are a small number that continue growing into their early to mid 20s.

Phantom · 08-08-2007, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Please point me to the workout that will let me gain 3 hat sizes.

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Bonds was 19 in 1983. Most people are done growing by that age, but there are a small number that continue growing into their early to mid 20s.

While that may be so, he was definately juicing... and if you believe the documents and testimony from the federal investigation, he was into it hard core.

WickedLou9 · 08-08-2007, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I don't get the high and mighty attitude. You think hank Aaron didn't and wouldn't have used steroids? Babe Ruth? I remember they interviewed Buck O Niel about it a few years back. He said it wasn't anything new, trainer would come in and say, "here boss, let me rub this into your shoulder, it will heal you up faster. Or here, lemme give you this it will help you train." It's common place, pros take supplements, steroids, works gym hours the rest of us couldn't take. There's no room for us to sit on our asses on the couch and question it. It's Bond's sport more than it's ours.

Babe Ruth did it while drunk, screwing a hooker and smoking a cigar. That fat bastard was definately not on roids.
it was a different game back then.
People are doing roids now because they feel that they have to. They think that everyone is doing it, and in order to keep up they have to juice too. So the number grows and the circle is perpetuated.

Donkey® · 08-08-2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

While that may be so, he was definately juicing... and if you believe the documents and testimony from the federal investigation, he was into it hard core.

You say that like he was walking around with a roid IV attached to his arm and an Andro enema every day? If so, why not ONE SINGLE positive test? Why not ONE SINGLE shred of PHYSICAL evidence?

Publius · 08-08-2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

While that may be so, he was definately juicing... and if you believe the documents and testimony from the federal investigation, he was into it hard core.

Maybe so, but I don't know anything about it and don't really care either way.

Baseball is possibly the most boring sport to watch, aside from golf.

Donkey® · 08-08-2007, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Babe Ruth did it while drunk, screwing a hooker and smoking a cigar. That fat bastard was definately not on roids.
it was a different game back then.
People are doing roids now because they feel that they have to. They think that everyone is doing it, and in order to keep up they have to juice too. So the number grows and the circle is perpetuated.

Then why haven't roids enhanced their performances to a point where we even notice them?