Privatized Roads in... NJ?!

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 12:59 PM

Governor Corzine is up to his neck in scandals at the moment. One of the issues he keeps bringing up to take attention off his affair and his giving millions of NJ tax money to his whore is privatization of NJ's toll roads.

Most of this is nothing other than a publicity stunt to cover up his own bad press, but it is an interesting proposition and has sparked quite a bit of debate in NJ. From what I can tell nobody in NJ wants this, but Corzine seems to be pushing for it.

Here's the article:
NJ.com's Printer-Friendly Page

Basically here's the problem in NJ... we have a lot of toll roads and we have A LOT of crooked politicians. A lot of our money is wasted on pay to play scenarios where our state government gives out millions of dollars to contracts in no-bid situations and then doesn't allow them to do the job or they simply don't do a job. Or they do work that doesn't need to be done, a nice response to a wealthy campaign contribution. All this money spent on pay to play and thrown at our roads could be costing us billions each year.

So the idea is rather than fix the corruption, sell the roads. Every toll road, Corzine essentially wants to sell to the highest bidder and allow them to manage the roads themselves. Thus saving the NJ tax payer from all the corruption expenses.

People obviously have a problem with this because the roads could be a large source of income for the state over time. They'd rather something be done about the corruption rather than sell away a key taxable infrastructure. They're also weary about costs. If the roads are owned by the government the citizens have at least have some say in how much we pay for the tolls. There's no guarantee what a private contractor would charge.

This is essentially right at the heart of a lot of libertarian ideals. Personally I'm against selling the highways to the highest bidder. But, I also don't think NJ will ever clean up its act, so it will likely just end up costing us billions each year.

WickedLou9 · 08-13-2007, 01:04 PM

I thought they were "leasing" the toll roads to generate income to fix the massive deficit in the budget?

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I thought they were "leasing" the toll roads to generate income to fix the massive deficit in the budget?

Leasing is another option they put on the table after Corzine wanted to sell them and got a world of backwash. The fundamental idea though is that Corzine wants to privatize the roads. Any lease he has mention to this point I believe has been upwards of over 20 years saying that a private company would need at least 20 years to make back their investment.

motivez · 08-13-2007, 01:23 PM

What makes you think this isn't better for the people in NJ? What downsides are there for those who live in NJ to having a private business owning the roads?

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

What makes you think this isn't better for the people in NJ? What downsides are there for those who live in NJ to having a private business owning the roads?

Just the fact that the private business can then charge whatever they want. The roads are currently set-up to essentially be non-profit. The money they collect is supposed to go right back into transportation.

The benefits would be less corruption, but in NJ corruption always finds a way. The downfalls would be increased toll rates with little oversight by the NJ citizens. We'd be willing to pay more to travel these roads than we currently do. And a private company would recognize that.

hsmith · 08-13-2007, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

What makes you think this isn't better for the people in NJ? What downsides are there for those who live in NJ to having a private business owning the roads?

Typically when someone buys roads (they are normally foreign/domestic pension firms, to diversify their investments in something long term) they have to sign these extremely long documents which bind them to tons of conditions

from what i have heard they are usually pretty good at keeping them up and it gives the state a shit ton of cash

ballz2wallz · 08-13-2007, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Typically when someone buys roads (they are normally foreign/domestic pension firms, to diversify their investments in something long term) they have to sign these extremely long documents which bind them to tons of conditions

from what i have heard they are usually pretty good at keeping them up and it gives the state a shit ton of cash

What would be the benefit of buying a road? How does it provide income? Do they remain toll roads?

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

What would be the benefit of buying a road? How does it provide income? Do they remain toll roads?

Yes they remain toll roads. And the owner is responsible for their maintenance and collection of tolls. Rather than the tolls going to the state, they go directly the owner.

The toll roads in NJ are a backbone. They're major highways that drive our economy. I can't really explain it, but these roads are very important to NJ, moreso than toll roads in most states. Congestion is so bad in this state there really aren't many plausible alternative routes to avoid the tolled highways. You'd end up spending the money on gas, let alone time detouring around the toll roads.

motivez · 08-13-2007, 01:44 PM

Isn't most of the gas tax used for maintaining the roads? Would it mean cheaper gas for NJ residents if the state wasn't paying for the maint? Or at least the funds could be shifted to other worthwhile projects?

And, what does it matter who owns them really? What is going to change so drastically by having a private owner?

ballz2wallz · 08-13-2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Congestion is so bad in this state

Probably due to all the tolls

Publius · 08-13-2007, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Probably due to all the tolls

Nah, not really. The days of every car having to stop to pay the toll are long gone, at least here. Probably 75% of the cars that use the north texas toll roads on a daily or near-daily basis have a tolltag, which is an electronic tag that you put on the car's windscreen and gets scanned by the tollway's readers as you pass through, automatically debiting the funds from a pre-paid account.

I'm sure NJ has a similar system.

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Probably due to all the tolls

No it's just our population density.
List of U.S. states by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

South Jersey isn't so bad, and skews just how bad traffic is for the majority of the state. And our roads are well laid out like a lot of other states where they seem to be a grid. We're kinda all over the place.

WickedLou9 · 08-13-2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes they remain toll roads. And the owner is responsible for their maintenance and collection of tolls. Rather than the tolls going to the state, they go directly the owner.

The toll roads in NJ are a backbone. They're major highways that drive our economy. I can't really explain it, but these roads are very important to NJ, moreso than toll roads in most states. Congestion is so bad in this state there really aren't many plausible alternative routes to avoid the tolled highways. You'd end up spending the money on gas, let alone time detouring around the toll roads.

yeah really. the Parkway and the Turnpike are pretty much the only major roads that go north-south from one end of the state to the other. Aside from them, you'd have to take a convoluted network of congested local roads.

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Nah, not really. The days of every car having to stop to pay the toll are long gone, at least here. Probably 75% of the cars that use the north texas toll roads on a daily or near-daily basis have a tolltag, which is an electronic tag that you put on the car's windscreen and gets scanned by the tollway's readers as you pass through, automatically debiting the funds from a pre-paid account.

I'm sure NJ has a similar system.

Yes we have EZ Pass. And on some of the major toll locations we have a lanes that veer off and there's a huge overpass of EZ Pass readers. Essentially you can just drive through at 65mph and never have even slow down. This of course is only plausible in areas where the surrounding area hasn't been built up. So these are currently few and far between, but they are figuring out ways to add more.

WickedLou9 · 08-13-2007, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Nah, not really. The days of every car having to stop to pay the toll are long gone, at least here. Probably 75% of the cars that use the north texas toll roads on a daily or near-daily basis have a tolltag, which is an electronic tag that you put on the car's windscreen and gets scanned by the tollway's readers as you pass through, automatically debiting the funds from a pre-paid account.

I'm sure NJ has a similar system.

yeah we have EZ-pass. There are no toll booths on the Turnpike. You only pay the toll when you get off. Sometimes there is congestion there but not usually. The parkway is modernizing, and there are toll booths every so often on the highway but they are installing those high speed EZ pass lanes and you can zip through them at 65mph.

Publius · 08-13-2007, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes we have EZ Pass. And on some of the major toll roads we have a lanes that veer off and there's a huge overpass of EZ Pass readers. Essentially you can just drive through at 65mph and never have even slow down.

We have those too, they call them Toll Plazas rather than toll booths

It's really a testament to how many people use the toll tag too ... At the plazas there are like 3 lanes for cash toll collection, and 7 or 8 lanes solely for tolltag pass-under.

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

We have those too, they call them Toll Plazas rather than toll booths

It's really a testament to how many people use the toll tag too ... At the plazas there are like 3 lanes for cash toll collection, and 7 or 8 lanes solely for tolltag pass-under.

Ours are more evenly split I'd say. We have Cash/Token lanes, Receipt lanes as well as EZ Pass lanes. EZ Pass probably takes up half of the lanes and they're starting to move most of them towards the left side of the toll booths which forces cash payers to stay out of the left lanes or manage a 5 lane change before the tolls on a congested NJ highway of cars merging for toll lanes. Not exactly an easy endeavor.

WickedLou9 · 08-13-2007, 02:05 PM

Maybe the private company can raise the speed limit on the TP to like 90mph and they can have thier own police that specifcaly target those ass wipes from NY who sit in the left lane and refuse to yield for anyone.

JaJae · 08-13-2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Maybe the private company can raise the speed limit on the TP to like 90mph and they can have thier own police that specifcaly target those ass wipes from NY who sit in the left lane and refuse to yield for anyone.

Yea hopefully then the state police won't keep trying to get the EZ Pass records of people going over the speed limit through the EZ Pass booths and mail them tickets. As of late they've held them off, but the state sees it as a major source of income and I have a feeling they're gonna crack and start back-logging tickets to everyone. It would be nice if the private company sent the evidence to the state police of serious violations only and was essentially off limits to forceful government interference.

Then again 90mph on those narrow Parkway lanes is pretty damn dangerous. I don't trust half the drivers on the Parkway as it is. Especially out of state drivers who aren't used to having one foot of clearance on either side of their car driving 75mph.

Publius · 08-13-2007, 02:09 PM

Pretty old picture of one of the toll plaza's on the Bush Turnpike ... There are now six to eight tolltag lanes on the left, with 2-4 cash lanes on the right.

There is a larger resolution one that shows the toll amount too, which is how I know that pic is at least 3 or 4 years old. The toll has been increased at the plazas from $0.50 to $0.75 for about 3 years now.

edit: fixed my numbers, the plazas are $0.75, entry ramp booths are $0.40.