Are there any viable results for Iraq, at this point, that are better for the US than

thomez · 08-22-2006, 02:30 PM

they were in 2002?

No matter what happens with the Iraqi military, the Iraqi police, the Iraqi national guard, and Iraqi democracy - I see no way in which Iraq can end with it being safer for US interests and global security than it was when we began our war there.

Who agrees or disagrees and state why.

motivez · 08-22-2006, 02:39 PM

I agree.. as sad as it is to say, Iraq was less of a threat to us and the reigion with Saddam running it.

The only way I see us succeeding is if we're willing to commit to another decade or longer there while incredibly beefing up the number of troops we have over there.

The problem with this current strategy as I see it is that the insurgents are able to play a game of whackamole with US troops who they lose to consistantly in skirmishes.

We don't control the entire country at the same time because we never had a large enough force to do it. Had Shinseki been listened to, there could have been a very different picture in Iraq at this time.

Perhaps there would have been planning for post-invasion operations, as well as completely filling the power vaccuum that allowed certain militias to spring up and dominate.

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 02:47 PM

i disagree.

when iraq becomes a stable nation, we'll have a steady ally in the middle east and a strategic military establishment for futher military actions in that area. not to mention a stable outflow of oil. not to mention huge investment opportunities for the US.

thomez · 08-22-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

i disagree.

when iraq becomes a stable nation, we'll have a steady ally in the middle east and a strategic military establishment for futher military actions in that area. not to mention a stable outflow of oil. not to mention huge investment opportunities for the US.

any ideas when this will happen? I do not forsee it at this point

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

any ideas when this will happen?

no, should i?

but i DO know it won't be unstable forever. that's simply not possible.

thomez · 08-22-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

no, should i?

but i DO know it won't be unstable forever. that's simply not possible.

that's hopeful, any bets on the next 25 years? what's the over/under on that?

motivez · 08-22-2006, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

i disagree.

when iraq becomes a stable nation, we'll have a steady ally in the middle east and a strategic military establishment for futher military actions in that area. not to mention a stable outflow of oil. not to mention huge investment opportunities for the US.

Because we've really enjoyed the people of the middle easts selection when it comes to Democracy so far, right?

The Shiites had a massive march in the streets that was anti-American and anti-Israeli.. You think they're going to continue supporting very pro-American people to lead their country if we ever allow them autonomy?

motivez · 08-22-2006, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

no, should i?

but i DO know it won't be unstable forever. that's simply not possible.

How long has the middle east been unstable / had wars among factions / etc?

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

How long has the middle east been unstable / had wars among factions / etc?

how long does the US go without wars or military actions? if you think about it, we have them fairly often.

motivez · 08-22-2006, 03:06 PM

That wasn't my question though. You said it wouldn't be unstable forever

However, if you look at the history of the reigion, well...

Kytro · 08-22-2006, 09:18 PM

The only way for Iraq to become the way the US desires it to become is by massive cultural change.

1. More troops are needed (kinda)

Really more police are needed, a lot more. Troops can be used to cleanup insurgents in a given area, but police need to maintain order.

2. Education needs to be promoted, and the standard of living raised.

These things by themselves will result in less extremeism, and certainly less tolerance of extremists.

3. Religion needs to be kept out of government as much as possible.

It will have influence, but it needs to be limited as mucha s possible. Also, local religious courts need to be disbanded so people do not place any authority in them.

4. Above all cultural change must be managed

This isn't easy, and you can't force it (other than via rape and pillage), and it will take a long time.

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That wasn't my question though. You said it wouldn't be unstable forever

However, if you look at the history of the reigion, well...

but my response got my point across...war is not a sign of instability.

many of the countries over there are in fact stable countries, yet involved in conflicts often.

Kytro · 08-22-2006, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

but my response got my point across...war is not a sign of instability.

It is if the war is in your nation

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

It is if the war is in your nation

and like i said, it won't always be like that in iraq

Kytro · 08-22-2006, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

and like i said, it won't always be like that in iraq

No, but it is now. That is a problem to solve, things don't just automatically go away.

Here is the problem. You keep doing the same thing, you are likey to get similar results.

lew · 08-22-2006, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

i disagree.

when iraq becomes a stable nation, we'll have a steady ally in the middle east and a strategic military establishment for futher military actions in that area. not to mention a stable outflow of oil. not to mention huge investment opportunities for the US.

Who's to say they will be our ally?

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

You keep doing the same thing, you are likey to get similar results.

things are changing constantly over there

ballz2wallz · 08-22-2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by lew

Who's to say they will be our ally?

certainly no guarantee, but it is the plan

lew · 08-22-2006, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

certainly no guarantee, but it is the plan

All of our plans there have failed thus far.

Kytro · 08-22-2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

things are changing constantly over there

Sure, but there is no sign of the violence stopping. I'm sure there will eventually be a period of peace, but there is no assurance of how soon, and how the nations will regard other nations.

Rather than just "wait it out" wouldn't it be better to gice a push in the right direction.

Soliders make for bad police