Thousands of Marines face involuntary recalls because of Iraqi Civil War

[thomez]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Did he join for the sole purpose of doing this? that's not cool if that's true. If he's just some military guy who has served, and is now saying that going to fight this war would be against the oath he took, then that's something different.

see post 124 by JaJae

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Did he join for the sole purpose of doing this? that's not cool if that's true. If he's just some military guy who has served, and is now saying that going to fight this war would be against the oath he took, then that's something different.

Who knows how true the wiki is on this one

Ehren Watada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm ignoring anything that seems like opinion so the only thing I get from that is "joined in 2003." Everything else is suspect.


cliffs: to answer your question he joined in 2003...we really have no idea why.

[thomez]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Yeah Henry broke the law because he thought government would stop taxing people for war

he might have thought he could change public opinion or whatever - obviously he wasn't going to stop taxes

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 7960

Are we disagreeing? I don't think we are. This guy joined and failed to show and now is going to jail... I'm ok with that.

Again, didn't I say this? Only history can judge him..........I disgree with you because I think people will either completely forget who this asshat was but that's just us having different opinions. Tell you what. If I remember his name in 20 years I'll buy you a drink, OK?

What if you develop a memory-affecting disease?

On June 16, 1918 Debs made an anti-war speech in Canton, Ohio, protesting World War I, and was arrested under the Espionage Act of 1917. He was convicted, sentenced to serve twenty years in prison and disenfranchised for life.

Debs made his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing:

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."

How many people know of Eugene Debs? Not many, but he is basically every collegiate american history book you will come across that covers the 20th century...its about who HISTORY remembers, not who YOU remember

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by thomez

he might have thought he could change public opinion or whatever - obviously he wasn't going to stop taxes

No one gave a shit that he went to jail during the war...only MANY YEARS later did history remember him with full respect

[7960]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

....its about who HISTORY remembers, not who YOU remember...

This will be the 3rd time I've said only history can judge him.......do I need to say it again?

But to your point, what did Debs accomplish? Hardly anyone knows who he is, nothing changed based on his actions or words. He went to jail (like this Wannabe guy) and no good came from it but (in Debs' case) a quote. Wallaby better hope history remembers him a little better because otherwise he's making a sacrifice for nothing

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 7960

This will be the 3rd time I've said only history can judge him.......do I need to say it again?

But to your point, what did Debs accomplish? Hardly anyone knows who he is, nothing changed based on his actions or words. He went to jail (like this Wannabe guy) and no good came from it but (in Debs' case) a quote. Wallaby better hope history remembers him a little better because otherwise he's making a sacrifice for nothing

Are you kidding? He's one of the most prominent members of the pacifist movement, and "hardly anyone" well I think from "Jaywalk" we can say that numbers alone don't mean much

"No good" is in the eye of the beholder, he was an inspiration to many then and now, and probably affected many in our government as well...can you imagine getting sentenced to 20 years hard time for making a speech against the Iraq War?

[motivez]

Maybe he wouldn't mind serving if the war wasn't being run so badly and our troops weren't over there dying for absolutely nothing with no plan for success.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

Maybe he wouldn't mind serving if the war wasn't being run so badly and our troops weren't over there dying for absolutely nothing with no plan for success.

Or maybe it was all just a publicity stunt.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Or maybe it was all just a publicity stunt.

the only facts are

-he joined in 2003
-we were already in iraq in 2003
-he knew we were in iraq then
-he refused to go when deployed

.........everything else is opinion or speculation.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by 7960

I have no problem with him doing this. But I also have no problem putting him in jail for a bunch of years for it, either . If he's a *true* patriot he'll sit quietly in jail for 7 years if he's convicted (which he will be, because he did it).

I have a problem only in so far as I don't think prision is appropriate for this.

Making him pay back the cost of training etc.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Kytro

I have a problem only in so far as I don't think prision is appropriate for this.

Making him pay back the cost of training etc.

He knew when he signed his name, "Go where we say or go to jail." He didn't mind accepting their money and training but when it came time to go he denied the military a resource they paid for...him.

It's not just about the money so the penalty shouldn't just be about the money. He took a spot of someone who would/should be in iraq right now. It's no different than if he sabotaged a piece of equipment and he should go to jail for it.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by 7960

He knew when he signed his name, "Go where we say or go to jail." He didn't mind accepting their money and training but when it came time to go he denied the military a resource they paid for...him.

It's not just about the money so the penalty shouldn't just be about the money. He took a spot of someone who would/should be in iraq right now. It's no different than if he sabotaged a piece of equipment and he should go to jail for it.

Uh.. he took the spot of someone? Really? Because The National Guard, Marines, Army are at their recruitment caps?

I think most people when they sign their names on that contract believe that their government wont use their pledge to defend this country to send them to some nation that posed no threat to the US, wont start wars unilaterally, without a plan for success, and so on and so forth.

He gets a from me for standing up for what he believes, especially when you consider how badly Iraq has been managed.

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

Uh.. he took the spot of someone? Really? Because The National Guard, Marines, Army are at their recruitment caps?

For enlisted, yes, but he applied for and was accepted to officer training school. If he hadn't then someone else would have gone and would be in iraq right now.

I think most people when they sign their names on that contract believe .....

Then 'most people' need to smarten-the-fuck-up and realize they signed up so they're going where they're told or they're going to jail. He knew, he refused, he knows the consequences.

He gets a from me for standing up for what he believes, especially when you consider how badly Iraq has been managed.

Interestingly, he gets a from me, too. But while I salute his decision not to show up I also expect and hope he'll go to jail for it.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by 7960

Then 'most people' need to smarten-the-fuck-up and realize

Or we should hold our leaders accountable for the list of things I mentioned.. and ensure that our military isn't misused in such a careless way.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

Or we should hold our leaders accountable for the list of things I mentioned.. and ensure that our military isn't misused in such a careless way.

That's an opinion. When you join the military you don't get to act on your opinions. There is nothing PC or opiniated about being an Army Officer. He belongs in jail.

Congress authorized the use of force. By our laws the war is legal and he has no right to protest, or to join the Army so he can grandstand.

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

Or we should hold our leaders accountable for the list of things I mentioned.. and ensure that our military isn't misused in such a careless way.

so any person in the military should be able to basically stop the military while it defends what it's doing? This guy disagrees........sorry but too fucking bad. He signed up KNOWING we were in iraq. He signed up KNOWING he was likely to go. He refused to go when told where he was needed.

Hello Leavenworth

[motivez]

I disagree. I think he deserves a medal.

When the circumstances are as they are now with regards to Iraq, people who refuse to follow the types of orders that are being issued now should be praised.

Things have been so badly mismanaged, and planning has been so inadequate, and things are going so badly, and with the leaderships refusal to change tactics, I can't imagine someone continuing to follow orders.

I understand that the "grunts" fight for the person next to them when they're out there, and they aren't going to want to abandon their friends, but even so.

All of the military should be demanding a change in strategy that has some plan for success so they're not over there dying for absolutely nothing like they are now.. It's really a shame to see it happening.

There's also no evidence that he joined the Army to grandstand, so that conjecture is worthless except as a means to character assassinate someone who's had the courage to do what a lot of military people surely feel.