Sometimes I think Bush isn't a republican at all....

[thatguyoverthere]

Good thread.

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

A real conservative is for limited government: "That government is best that governs least." Under the neoconservatives, there has been the greatest increase in the size of the federal government and expansion of its regulatory power in the history of the nation.

A real conservative is in favor of states’ rights and against the intrusion of the federal government into individual and private affairs. Contrary to this, the neoconservatives are the first to go running to the federal courts the minute things don’t go their way; and it is they who have enacted legislation in the name of patriotism that represents the most invasive and pervasive intrusion upon our civil rights and individual liberties.

A real conservative is for a strong national defense as the first order of the federal government. The neoconservatives, however, have actually proposed the most drastic reduction of the nation’s armed forces and dismantling of our military bases and installations since the end of the last world war, while wasting tax revenues on phony defense contracts. Indeed, their motto is: Military appropriations are spendable, military personnel are expendable.

A real conservative is for a balanced budget. Under the neoconservatives, we have gone from surpluses to the largest deficits in our history. The greatest thing that America leads the world in now is the amount of the national debt. It will not be long before control of our national economy will be held by China.

A real conservative is for religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution under the Bill of Rights. The neoconservatives, however, would turn the Constitution upside down and substitute religious dogma for our government of laws. "Jesus is Lord!" they shout. But whose religion will prevail, as history has shown, can only be determined by religious wars, followed by religious persecution. Our founding fathers, whose names the neoconservatives now take in vain, sought to insure religious freedom through the separation of church and state.

A real conservative is against engaging in foreign entanglements. Our citizens should not be sacrificed on foreign shores but in defense of the nation from attack by our enemies. Nor do the arguments for globalization require that America be engaged in foreign wars. Yet the neoconservatives have done just that. Worse, they are preemptive wars; wars that are being waged for the sake of private and not the national interests.

A real conservative would "conserve" our natural resources for all the people. The neoconservative would "reform" conservation to mean exploitation of the nation’s resources for private business interests. Under the stewardship of the neoconservatives, much of the great wealth of the nation has been squandered.

The neoconservatives are not conservatives at all - they are exactly the opposite. They share none of the traditional conservative values they purport to represent, and practice none of its principles. They are, in truth, subversives who want to undermine the Constitution and destroy our democratic institutions. They try to hide behind morals and values they do not share. They have nothing to offer but vicious selfishness, rapacious greed and callous meanspiritedness.

Absolutely 100% Grade A+ Dead On Bulls Eye Five Stars Ten Out Of Ten Number 1 With A Bullet!!!



This above post needs to be tattooed on the foreheads of every person nowadays who claims to be "conservative" but doesn't know the first damn thing about real conservatism.

They've been schooled.

Well done.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

A real conservative is for limited government: "That government is best that governs least." Under the neoconservatives, there has been the greatest increase in the size of the federal government and expansion of its regulatory power in the history of the nation.

A real conservative is in favor of states’ rights and against the intrusion of the federal government into individual and private affairs. Contrary to this, the neoconservatives are the first to go running to the federal courts the minute things don’t go their way; and it is they who have enacted legislation in the name of patriotism that represents the most invasive and pervasive intrusion upon our civil rights and individual liberties.

A real conservative is for a strong national defense as the first order of the federal government. The neoconservatives, however, have actually proposed the most drastic reduction of the nation’s armed forces and dismantling of our military bases and installations since the end of the last world war, while wasting tax revenues on phony defense contracts. Indeed, their motto is: Military appropriations are spendable, military personnel are expendable.

A real conservative is for a balanced budget. Under the neoconservatives, we have gone from surpluses to the largest deficits in our history. The greatest thing that America leads the world in now is the amount of the national debt. It will not be long before control of our national economy will be held by China.

A real conservative is for religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution under the Bill of Rights. The neoconservatives, however, would turn the Constitution upside down and substitute religious dogma for our government of laws. "Jesus is Lord!" they shout. But whose religion will prevail, as history has shown, can only be determined by religious wars, followed by religious persecution. Our founding fathers, whose names the neoconservatives now take in vain, sought to insure religious freedom through the separation of church and state.

A real conservative is against engaging in foreign entanglements. Our citizens should not be sacrificed on foreign shores but in defense of the nation from attack by our enemies. Nor do the arguments for globalization require that America be engaged in foreign wars. Yet the neoconservatives have done just that. Worse, they are preemptive wars; wars that are being waged for the sake of private and not the national interests.

A real conservative would "conserve" our natural resources for all the people. The neoconservative would "reform" conservation to mean exploitation of the nation’s resources for private business interests. Under the stewardship of the neoconservatives, much of the great wealth of the nation has been squandered.

The neoconservatives are not conservatives at all - they are exactly the opposite. They share none of the traditional conservative values they purport to represent, and practice none of its principles. They are, in truth, subversives who want to undermine the Constitution and destroy our democratic institutions. They try to hide behind morals and values they do not share. They have nothing to offer but vicious selfishness, rapacious greed and callous meanspiritedness.

Nice copy and paste. No "Real" Conservative Candidate for the GOP? - America's Debate

I agree with a lot of what this said, but most of it was filler bullshit.

[lew]

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

The Neocons have subverted the Republican Party. The last real Republican (and true conservative) was Senator Barry Goldwater.

I understand what you are saying. But Bush is certainly a Republican. The Republicans have forsaken their roots. And Goldwater isn't their roots. Goldwater was great, don't get me wrong, but he was the first of a new breed of conservatism as well. Old Right conservatives were non-interventionist. Goldwater was right on economic policy and small government, but he was for war with the Russians if it led to that.

The last "true" conservative (true Scotsman) was Robert Taft.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by lew

I understand what you are saying. But Bush is certainly a Republican. The Republicans have forsaken their roots. And Goldwater isn't their roots. Goldwater was great, don't get me wrong, but he was the first of a new breed of conservatism as well. Old Right conservatives were non-interventionist. Goldwater was right on economic policy and small government, but he was for war with the Russians if it led to that.

The last "true" conservative (true Scotsman) was Robert Taft.

I guess we can also say there are no true Democrats. They died with JFK. I mean, his most famous quote was "Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country".

And now the Democrat mantra is "Ask not what your country can do for you—demand it!"

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

I subscribe to the principles of the Whig Party Platform of 1852 (except Article Eighth which was rendered nugatory with the repeal of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 in 1864, and the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment in 1865). Mine is the party of Daniel Webster and Henry Clay. The last person of my party to be elected President was General Zachary Taylor. (Vice President Millard Fillmore, who succeeded him in office on his untimely death, was not reelected.)

Whig Party Platform of 1852

The Whigs of the United States, in Convention assembled, firmly adhering to the great conservative principles by which they are controlled and governed, and now as ever relying upon the intelligence of the American people, with an abiding confidence in their capacity for self-government, and their devotion to the Constitution and the Union, do proclaim the following as the political sentiments and determination for the establishment and maintenance of which their national organization as a party was effected:

First: The Government of the United States is of a limited character, and it is confined to the exercise of powers expressly granted by the Constitution, and such as may be necessary and proper for carrying the granted powers into full execution, and that all powers not granted or necessarily implied are expressly reserved to the States respectively and to the people.

Second: The State Governments should be held secure in their reserved rights, and the General Government sustained on its constitutional powers, and that the Union should be revered and watched over as the palladium of our liberties.

Third: That while struggling freedom everywhere enlists the warmest sympathy of the Whig party, we still adhere to the doctrines of the Father of his Country, as announced in his Farewell Address, of keeping ourselves free from all entangling alliances with foreign countries, and of never quitting our own to stand upon foreign ground, that our mission as a republic is not to propagate our opinions, or impose on other countries our form of government by artifice or force; but to teach, by example, and show by our success, moderation and justice, the blessings of self-government, and the advantages of free institutions.

Fourth: That, as the people make and control the Government, they should obey its constitution, laws and treaties, as they would retain their self-respect, and the respect which they claim and will enforce from foreign powers.

Fifth: Revenue sufficient for the expenses of an economical administration of the Government in time of peace ought to be derived from a duty on imports, and not from direct taxation; and in laying such duties, sound policy requires a just discrimination, whereby suitable encouragement may be afforded to American industry, equally to all classes, and to all parts of the country.

Sixth: The Constitution vests in Congress the power to open and repair harbors, and remove obstructions from navigable rivers, whenever such improvements are necessary for the common defense, and for the protection and facility of commerce with foreign nations, or among the States, said improvements being, in every instance, national and general in their character.

Seventh: The Federal and State Governments are parts of one system, alike necessary for the common prosperity, peace and security, and ought to be regarded alike with a cordial, habitual and immovable attachment. Respect for the authority of each and acquiescence in the just constitutional measures of each, are duties required by the plainest considerations of national, state, and individual welfare.

The platform espouses a very traditional conservative philosophy. I find Article Third particularly apropos to our present situation in the Middle East.

Just as an aside, George Washington, who is considered the father of our country, advised against political parties. See George Washington, "Farewell Address" (1796). The rest of our so-called "founding fathers" had no hesitation to choosing sides.

I'm starting to think you are a copy/paste bot

I subscribe to the principles of the Whig Party Platform of 1852 - Google Search

[garbagemanlb]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I guess we can also say there are no true Democrats. They died with JFK. I mean, his most famous quote was "Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country".

And now the Democrat mantra is "Ask not what your country can do for you—demand it!"

I agree. Both parties are about big government...there is not one GOP candidate that is a true conservative, in my mind, other than Ron Paul.

Being that I am not conservative, I won't be voting for him. However, I find it extremely humorous that there are Republicans claiming he doesn't fit in the party, while still boasting about 'conservatism'.

Giuliani, Thompson, Romney...all are for big government in various ways, while spouting off the talking points about being for limited government.

At the same time, people in the Democratic party, such as Hillary, have also totally sold out their values in order to gain more power...just look at her healthcare stance between the early 90s and today, where she is now in bed with the very people she fought against over a decade ago. She is basically Republican-lite.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I'm starting to think you are a copy/paste bot

I subscribe to the principles of the Whig Party Platform of 1852 - Google Search

I honestly think he has a collection of snippits like this and he uses them to post on the board for the most part.

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

The real estate "bust" has just begun. Countrywide borrowed 11.5 billion this month just to keep operating. What we have seen was just a ripple in the world financial markets over the subprime mortgage problem. What is coming, with more than two million foreclosures projected over the next twelve months, is a tsunami! You won't see the bottom of the market until late 2008; and then it will take years before it comes back. It was all due to the extraordinary amount of "puffing" by real estate and mortgage brokers; and not just a few of them will be bankrupt.

I agree with this. We are just seeing the beginning of what will come. That is what happens when you have more individual debt then individual income as a nation. There are several lists out there of well known banks that have also done sub-prime loans and therefore are at great risk of bankruptcy as well. I would steer clear of them and also take your monay out if invested. I am doing that this week.

Funny my house is also mortgaged through Country wide on a jumbo loan. A little worried about it but not too badly as another bank will buy it as it is a low risk loan (30 yr fixed interest only).

[lew]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I guess we can also say there are no true Democrats. They died with JFK. I mean, his most famous quote was "Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country".

And now the Democrat mantra is "Ask not what your country can do for you—demand it!"

Oh to be sure, the Democrats have forsaken their roots as well.


Hell, Thomas Jefferson is the root of the Democrats, not FDR, Marxism, or any other modern theory of liberalism.

[Scrum]

Selfishly I glad he is doing this.


The Mortgage market is what puts food on the table around here and it's been slim pickins for the past couple months.

[thomez]

It must be nice for big business.... knowing that when they fuck up, the taxpayers have their back.... nobody wants to see the stock market go down a few thousand points.... at least nobody that matters...

[Scrum]

I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Scrum

I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread.

It is perfect for this thread.

[Rouger2]

Why was this allowed to happen anyone could see it coming. It was just allowed to play out why? Was it to keep the economy booming? There is something fishy going on. We are just being manipulated by those in power who think we are idiots to be lead around like blind people, but we are the ones that are really in trouble because the people doing the leading are the idiots.

[7th Ninjai]

Are you fucking kidding me? Personal responsibility is dead.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Why was this allowed to happen anyone could see it coming. It was just allowed to play out why? Was it to keep the economy booming? There is something fishy going on. We are just being manipulated by those in power who think we are idiots to be lead around like blind people, but we are the ones that are really in trouble because the people doing the leading are the idiots.

There American Dream is still a powerful motivator for people in this country. And the Agents and Lenders manipulated numbers and financing to make buyers believe that their American Dream can come true.

It is an aspect of personal responsibility, however, our current culture holds the idea of "attaining" more important.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

There American Dream is still a powerful motivator for people in this country. And the Agents and Lenders manipulated numbers and financing to make buyers believe that their American Dream can come true.

It is an aspect of personal responsibility, however, our current culture holds the idea of "attaining" more important.

There has been talk about this collapse for years ever since all these new houses started popping up all over the place, everybody knew what was going to happen, but what could the average joe do about it. If the average joe knew what was going to happen with these fancy loans the big bankers and politicians knew, but they just let it play out. Something smells like rotten fish about this.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

There has been talk about this collapse for years ever since all these new houses started popping up all over the place, everybody knew what was going to happen, but what could the average joe do about it. If the average joe knew what was going to happen with these fancy loans the big bankers and politicians knew, but they just let it play out. Something smells like rotten fish about this.

You pointed out two important sets of people. Bankers and Politicians.

What do they have to gain by this? I think they gain alot. I think that all that money made off those loans (especially here in the OC) is interesting because people are going to loose their 600K homes, and have to buy something 300-450K to bring back affordability. While that USED to be the home prices here about 7 years ago. Ironically today, the only thing that you can buy around here for that is.......

A High Rise Condo.

And those are currently being built up. How weird huh? And who makes money off of new Land Developments? Politicians and Bankers.


I think that this Housing "crisis" is a manufactured way to buy up homes to demolish for land developments.

I anticipate that certain "lower" neighborhoods around here really suffer from these foreclosures, and end up to the ground, four stories high with a Jamba Juice and Quiznos on the first floor.

So much for owning a plot of land to live on.