Everyday I move a little closer to Agnosticism

[jimeigh]

Originally Posted by SVTman

i agree with you completely

that would make you completely incorrect. go you.

[motivez]

I don't think I'm wrong, you can parse the language to make a counter point, use formal, long winded definitions that go into the history of the word, etc.. instead of what the majority of people use, but it doesn't invalidate what I've said at all.

So long as people make an unequivocal statement to the effect that "There is no God." -- they're making a statement that's not based in fact, but rather faith in their belief system of a universe that is devoid of a God.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think I'm wrong, you can parse the language to make a counter point, use formal, long winded definitions that go into the history of the word, etc.. instead of what the majority of people use, but it doesn't invalidate what I've said at all.

So long as people make an unequivocal statement to the effect that "There is no God." -- they're making a statement that's not based in fact, but rather faith in their belief system of a universe that is devoid of a God.

but faith is defined as having to do with religion. you can't use a religious word to define a strictly anti-religious belief.

Main Entry:1faith Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\ Function:noun Inflected Form(s):plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\Etymology:Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fidesDate:13th century (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think I'm wrong, you can parse the language to make a counter point, use formal, long winded definitions that go into the history of the word, etc.. instead of what the majority of people use, but it doesn't invalidate what I've said at all.

So long as people make an unequivocal statement to the effect that "There is no God." -- they're making a statement that's not based in fact, but rather faith in their belief system of a universe that is devoid of a God.

So if you were to say "There are no zombies", would that be a statement of faith or would it be making a statement based on all available facts?

[Publius]

Originally Posted by motivez

They say "There is no God" as a statement of fact. It's a belief, which requires faith that it's a correct one in the face of zero evidence supporting it.

That's like saying it is a statement of faith to say, "the sun is out" when it is 2pm but you're stuck in a building with no windows. You have no evidence of it, but it doesn't take a leap of faith for it to be an acceptable assumption.

In the absence of any kind of proof of the existence of a God, it is an acceptable assumption to say there is no God. It takes faith to have no proof of something yet say it exists, it doesn't take faith to have no proof of something and thus say it doesn't.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think I'm wrong, you can parse the language to make a counter point, use formal, long winded definitions that go into the history of the word, etc.. instead of what the majority of people use, but it doesn't invalidate what I've said at all.

So long as people make an unequivocal statement to the effect that "There is no God." -- they're making a statement that's not based in fact, but rather faith in their belief system of a universe that is devoid of a God.

How would you categorize someone that makes the unequivocal statement, "I have no belief in the existence of gods." ?

Just wondering.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Publius

That's like saying it is a statement of faith to say, "the sun is out" when it is 2pm but you're stuck in a building with no windows. You have no evidence of it, but it doesn't take a leap of faith for it to be an acceptable assumption.

The sun is something that has been proven real, the concept of God is not the same.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

How would you categorize someone that makes the unequivocal statement, "I have no belief in the existence of gods." ?

Just wondering.

I think there's a difference between saying "I don't know whether or not there is a God" and "There is no God"

I don't want to parse every possible combination of words

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by SVTman

i believe that the religion of Christianity has taken to much from the power that you ca find in bible. you may not believe becuase you have never seen it work but why would it work for you if you don't even believe that it will. its called faith and in order to believe anything even athiesm you have to have faith that what you think is true. this is how it works and how it has always worked.

wait, you're the person that discounts evolution because no one really knows how life first started.

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by motivez

Atheists believe there is no God. They can't prove it, but believe it anyway.. so it's a faith just like the people who believe there is a God and can't prove it.

Not at all.

As a religious person the burden of proof is on you to claim that there is a man in the sky. The Atheist has a belief based on what is scientifically obeservable. God isn't one of those things.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think there's a difference between saying "I don't know whether or not there is a God" and "There is no God"

I don't want to parse every possible combination of words

Those are two different philosophical proposals. One is epistemological ("I don't know") while the other is theological. Mixing belief and knowledge is common in western societies. One major reason for this is because western religions exercise indoctrination which asks that people unequivocally adhere to the doctrine in the absence of evidence to support it ("His word is Truth"). People believe in the doctrine, but they're so convinced of it that they know the doctrine is truth.

That's relevant because it explains your confusion between theological knowledge and theological belief. The following statements are fundamentally different: (1) I believe there exists a god; (2) I know there exists a god. The latter epistemological. Likewise, "I don't know" is epistemological, just as "I don't believe" is theological.

Obviously they're all theological statements, really, but I say that the knowledge ones are epistemological because they reveal an important element of one's epistemology: whether or not that person claims to know things in the absence of verifiable empirical evidence.

But I digress. Atheism is a statement of belief, while agnosticism is a statement of knowledge when making a distinction from belief (some people do not recognize a distinction; most dualists, for example, would not appreciate the term agnostic because their metaphysical "knowledge" is just as truthful as their empirical "knowledge," as far as they're concerned).


The point here is that agnosticism is not "fence sitting" or "somewhere between atheism and theism" or "the gray area." So when I ask you, "What would call a person that lacks a belief in existence of gods while making no affirmative claims about the nonexistence of gods?", agnosticism is certainly not the most accurate term to describe that person (admittedly, you didn't say it was). Most people would be okay with the word atheism. You prefer not to use that word. So I'm asking you, for future reference, how would you prefer that I categorize myself, if not as an atheist? Perhaps I'm a lackofbeliefingodsist?

[up|dn]

Breaking news: Christians were impious atheists.

Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean » Breaking news: Early Christians were impious atheists . . . (NT 3.2)(Philip A. Harland)

From The Martyrdom of Polycarp

“Therefore, when he was brought before him, the proconsul asked if he were Polycarp. And when he confessed that he was, the proconsul tried to persuade him to recant saying, ‘Have respect for your age,’ and other such thngs as they are accustomed to say: ‘Swear by the Genius [guardian spirit] of Caesar; repent, say, ‘Away with the atheists!’ So Polycarp solemnly looked at the whole crowd of lawless heathen who were in the stadium, motioned toward them with his hand, and then (groaning as he looked up to heaven) said, ‘Away with the atheists!’” (Mart. Poly. 9.2; trans. by J.B. Lightfoot and J.R. Harmer and revised by Michael W. Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992]).

This is both an interesting ancient anecdote, and telling in how the word was used against Christians, for denying the gods of the Roman state.

Atheists today are really much the same, except that they deny the god of the Old Testament and/or Koran as well.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by up|dn

Breaking news: Christians were impious atheists.

Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean » Breaking news: Early Christians were impious atheists . . . (NT 3.2)(Philip A. Harland)



This is both an interesting ancient anecdote, and telling in how the word was used against Christians, for denying the gods of the Roman state.

Atheists today are really much the same, except that they deny the god of the Old Testament and/or Koran as well.

Yeah, I was actually just listening to lectures last week by both Luke Timothy Johnson and Bart D. Ehrman that talked about how Christians were accused by their pagan contemporaries of being atheists. Conversely, though, the Pagans also accused them of being rapists, carnivores, necromancers, and pedophiles.

[jimeigh]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think I'm wrong,

of course you dont.
thats because you're wrong.

[jimeigh]

Originally Posted by Grouch

The Atheist has a belief based on what is scientifically obeservable. God isn't one of those things.

the term "atheist" doesnt imply anything about a person's positively held beliefs at all. it just means that the person does NOT believe in god(s). thats all. seriously. a person could believe the stupidest things and be absolutely wrong about natural science, and be an atheist.

a guy could believe that grass is green because during the night, eagles sneeze all over the ground. it would be stupid, and he would be wrong, but provided that this person doesnt believe in god, he would be an atheist nonetheless, with stupid unscientific beliefs. even if he kept believing that grass was green because of eagle snot, when presented with scientific evidence to the contrary, and even if he had FAITH that grass is green because of eagle snot, and thought it was virtuous to believe in it precisely BECAUSE he had no proof or reason to believe it, he would STILL be an atheist, because he didnt believe in god.

if you were never approached with or thought about religious or scientific concepts at all, you would still be an atheist, simply because you havent affirmed a belief in god or gods.

[up|dn]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Yeah, I was actually just listening to lectures last week by both Luke Timothy Johnson and Bart D. Ehrman that talked about how Christians were accused by their pagan contemporaries of being atheists. Conversely, though, the Pagans also accused them of being rapists, carnivores, necromancers, and pedophiles.

A lot of that was based on misunderstandings (there are some funny stories about what people thought Christians did in their secret meetings), but the part about Christians denying the gods was more or less true. In a society where good and bad things happen because you honour and/or propitiate the gods of the state, it is a grave and impious sin to deny those gods. It's basically treason, and it probably wasn't too hard for Nero to use the Christians as scapegoats for burning down Rome.

It actually reminds me a bit of Pat Robertson, or the other extremist fundamentalists, who blames everything from earthquakes to typhoons on people's denial of God.

[DavidHenry]

Originally Posted by motivez

Atheists believe there is no God. They can't prove it, but believe it anyway.. so it's a faith just like the people who believe there is a God and can't prove it.

Prove what exactly?

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by DavidHenry

Prove what exactly?

howdy and welcome.