More excessive police force: Woman in Wheelchair Dies from Taser - Page 3

motivez · 09-24-2007, 03:14 AM

The idea that tasering a lady in a wheelchair for 3 minutes was the only reasonable option they had is so ridiculous I can't believe people are trying to defend it

They coulda used those things animal control uses to gain control of unruly animals.. those long sticks with the ropes at the end.. they coulda put that around her hand to get the knife away, or stuck it inbetween her wheels, or used a swat team shield and pepper spray..

nbiggershaft · 09-24-2007, 03:57 AM

Idunno, if 99/100 keeping her tased meant she couldn't kill herself or hurt anyone else and 1/100 this use of a taser would kill someone, then it makes sense to me. You wouldn't have heard about it had she just cut her wrists after giving a minor cut to cop, or if they tased her for over 2 minutes and eventually disarmed her.

Stylerod · 09-24-2007, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

The idea that tasering a lady in a wheelchair for 3 minutes was the only reasonable option they had is so ridiculous I can't believe people are trying to defend it

They coulda used those things animal control uses to gain control of unruly animals.. those long sticks with the ropes at the end.. they coulda put that around her hand to get the knife away, or stuck it inbetween her wheels, or used a swat team shield and pepper spray..

People have died from pepper spray. She could have died if they would have tipped her chair over and hit her head. She could have died from self inflicted wounds if they didn't stop her soon enough. She could have died just from the exertion of the struggle if they would have jumped on her to control her arms.

WickedLou9 · 09-24-2007, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

People have died from pepper spray. She could have died if they would have tipped her chair over and hit her head. She could have died from self inflicted wounds if they didn't stop her soon enough. She could have died just from the exertion of the struggle if they would have jumped on her to control her arms.

Yeah or a meteorite could have fallen out of the sky and killed her while they were figuring out how to restrain her. Or she could have died from natural causes.... or gun fire from a passing drive by shooting. God you never know. People die all the time

That's no excuse for taking unecessary risk and doing something which violates protocol and which results in someones death. Are you being serious or are you just playing devils advocate?

Stylerod · 09-24-2007, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Yeah or a meteorite could have fallen out of the sky and killed her while they were figuring out how to restrain her. Or she could have died from natural causes.... or gun fire from a passing drive by shooting. God you never know. People die all the time

That's no excuse for taking unecessary risk and doing something which violates protocol and which results in someones death. Are you being serious or are you just playing devils advocate?

Any of those things could have killed her. Don't try to play it off like any of them are not realistic either. Comparing a meteor killing her to her having a heart attack during a struggle is just an intellectual cop out. She died of heart failure which they think could have been accelerated by the shocks. She already had heart disease which the cops didn't know about.

Ardentfrost · 09-24-2007, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Any of those things could have killed her. Don't try to play it off like any of them are not realistic either. Comparing a meteor killing her to her having a heart attack during a struggle is just an intellectual cop out. She died of heart failure which they think could have been accelerated by the shocks. She already had heart disease which the cops didn't know about.

According to the article (and a part I even emphasized), the coroner said the shocks DID cause the death, and ruled it a homicide. There's no "could have" about it, coroner says "yes."

WickedLou9 · 09-24-2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Any of those things could have killed her. Don't try to play it off like any of them are not realistic either. Comparing a meteor killing her to her having a heart attack during a struggle is just an intellectual cop out. She died of heart failure which they think could have been accelerated by the shocks. She already had heart disease which the cops didn't know about.

So because anything could kill you right now, I see no big deal if I walk up and shoot you in the face. Shit you could have died from a heart attack anyway. Who knows, maybe you have a heart condition and you died because you were scared of the gun and my shooting you had nothing to do with it.

Stylerod · 09-24-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So because anything could kill you right now, I see no big deal if I walk up and shoot you in the face. Shit you could have died from a heart attack anyway. Who knows, maybe you have a heart condition and you died because you were scared of the gun and my shooting you had nothing to do with it.

Again. People have died from pepper spray in the face. It causes difficulty in breathing, which can increase heart rate and limit oxygen to the sytem causing a heart attack on people with weak or defective hearts.

The moronic statement about shooting someone is the face is stupid because, chances are, you will die from it. With a taser, chances are, you won't die from it.

WickedLou9 · 09-24-2007, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Again. People have died from pepper spray in the face. It causes difficulty in breathing, which can increase heart rate and limit oxygen to the sytem causing a heart attack on people with weak or defective hearts.

The moronic statement about shooting someone is the face is stupid because, chances are, you will die from it. With a taser, chances are, you won't die from it.

That's the part I don't agree with. We are talking about a frail eldery person in a wheel chair. If you taze them for 2 minutes straight, chances are they WILL die, thus the requirement not to taze people for more than a short period.

Stylerod · 09-24-2007, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

According to the article (and a part I even emphasized), the coroner said the shocks DID cause the death, and ruled it a homicide. There's no "could have" about it, coroner says "yes."

No, it actually said

A medical examiner found Delafield died from hypertensive heart disease and cited the Taser gun shock as a contributing factor

Associate Medical Examiner Valerie Rao, who performed the autopsy in Jacksonville last year, said the Taser shocks were a "very small factor" in the death of Delafield, who was obese and had an enlarged heart and was confined to a wheelchair. But the Tasers were a contributing factor, she said.

And Lou. What makes her frail and elderly? She was 56. My mom is 67 and isn't anywhere near elderly. And being in a wheel chair doesn't make someone frail.

Ardentfrost · 09-24-2007, 03:35 PM

the medical examiner ruled Delafield's death a homicide.

Stylerod · 09-24-2007, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

It almost sounds like she is contradicting herself. But if you say BOO! to someone and they have a heart attack, would a medical examiner consider that a homicide? I don't know what the legal basis is. Any human action that might have contributed to the death? I'm not sure.

motivez · 09-24-2007, 04:58 PM

That could be construed as depraved indifference depending on the circumstances.

JaJae · 09-24-2007, 05:26 PM

One article I read on the issue said the family gave police permission to use the taser. Does that make them an accomplice to the cited homicide?

Ardentfrost · 09-24-2007, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

One article I read on the issue said the family gave police permission to use the taser. Does that make them an accomplice to the cited homicide?

If I let you babysit my kid (nonexistent) and gave you permission to spank them if they misbehave, am I an accomplice if you beat them to death?

nbiggershaft · 09-24-2007, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

If you taze them for 2 minutes straight, chances are they WILL die

I think the question of, is this true for your average 56 year old in a wheelchair? and should the police have known this is? Unless we get a definitive on this I'd say we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

motivez · 09-24-2007, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

One article I read on the issue said the family gave police permission to use the taser. Does that make them an accomplice to the cited homicide?

Unless she was completely mentally incompetent to make her own decisions, the family has no right to give the police permission to do something physically to another member of their family

The police themselves make those decisions based on the law and the circumstances of the situation..

JaJae · 09-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Unless she was completely mentally incompetent to make her own decisions, the family has no right to give the police permission to do something physically to another member of their family

The police themselves make those decisions based on the law and the circumstances of the situation..

She was a mental patient off her meds threatening her family with a knife. Does that qualify as incompetent to make her own decisions?

They were probably tasing her and telling her to drop the knife or she'd get it again. And it seems like she kept refusing. I don't think they were tasing her cause they enjoyed the screaming or some other sadistic or ignorant reason. Pictures I saw of her showed she was a rather large person and in all probability it was probably more dangerous to attempt to disarm her than it would be to tase her in hopes she'd drop the knife.

There's two sides to every story and I'm willing to bet the officers that day are being painted in a much more negative light than they should be. If a large unmedicated mental patient with a history of violence had a large knife and it was your job to diffuse the situation to make sure nobody got hurt (including yourself). What would you do? I would use the taser until she dropped the knife or tired out. Which seems to have been exactly what these police officers did.

JaJae · 09-24-2007, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

The idea that tasering a lady in a wheelchair for 3 minutes was the only reasonable option they had is so ridiculous I can't believe people are trying to defend it

They coulda used those things animal control uses to gain control of unruly animals.. those long sticks with the ropes at the end.. they coulda put that around her hand to get the knife away, or stuck it inbetween her wheels, or used a swat team shield and pepper spray..

Not every department has a swat team. I would love to see someone attempt to use a dog noose to wrap around a crazy person's wrist, it just might make a fitting video for America's Funniest Home Videos. This is exactly the situation tasers are given to law enforcement for and that's what they used.