Supreme Court vs Lethal Injection - Page 2

WickedLou9 · 09-25-2007, 05:14 PM

Seriously though, does anyone know why we use this elaborate 3 drug cocktail to kill people? Why don't we just pump them full of pentobarb and booze or something until they die peacefully? They always say, the best way to go is to overdose on alcohol and sleeping pills.
Or how about carbon monoxide? That shit just puts you to sleep too and you die shortly thereafter.

SoFlaJDM · 09-25-2007, 05:15 PM

it's too cheap

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

But let's compare apples to apples. Crimes that get the death penalty are crimes where people aren't getting out of prison...ever.

What's the point? Are people in for life committing suicide at alarming rates?. Clearly not. I live not far from a maximum security prison in Rahway, NJ. There's thousands of inmates in there for life sentences, many for multiple life sentences. Their suicide rate is extremely low, even for the people who are made into other's bitches. Which means they prefer life in prison to death.

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Seriously though, does anyone know why we use this elaborate 3 drug cocktail to kill people? Why don't we just pump them full of pentobarb and booze or something until they die peacefully? They always say, the best way to go is to overdose on alcohol and sleeping pills.
Or how about carbon monoxide? That shit just puts you to sleep too and you die shortly thereafter.

It needs to be done medically and under supervision to make sure it's humane. The idea is to put them to sleep. Then relax them so they can't feel anything and then stop their heart. It usually works that way. Occasionally it doesn't.

Carbon monoxide takes a while to put you to sleep. During that time you're sitting there waiting, fighting it, etc. Giving a drug to immediately induce sleep then muscle relaxers so you can't feel anything really is the more humane way to do it... if it's done properly. If anything overdose them on whatever drugs they're already giving them. I'm not a doctor, but I would think that would help prevent people from waking up during the final injection.

It's still far more humane than the electric chair or hanging someone.

Donkey® · 09-25-2007, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

What's the point? Are people in for life committing suicide at alarming rates?. Clearly not. I live not far from a maximum security prison in Rahway, NJ. There's thousands of inmates in there for life sentences, many for multiple life sentences. Their suicide rate is extremely low, even for the people who are made into other's bitches. Which means they prefer life in prison to death.

It doesn't mean that at all. First, "multiple life sentences" doesn't mean that they committed multiple crimes outside of the crimes they were sent to prison for. Second, suicide has nothing to do with how people are living...but with a mental condition. Are you claiming that because more people on the outside of prison commit suicide because outside life is more of a punishment than life in prison?

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

It doesn't mean that at all. First, "multiple life sentences" doesn't mean that they committed multiple crimes outside of the crimes they were sent to prison for.

I never said it did, nor do I see the relation.

Second, suicide has nothing to do with how people are living...but with a mental condition. Are you claiming that because more people on the outside of prison commit suicide because outside life is more of a punishment than life in prison?

I don't know where you're getting your figures but more people commit suicide in prisons than outside prisons. So I don't understand your argument. Perhaps I need to clarify.

Your argument was that life in prison is a worse sentence than death. My argument is that we have thousands of people in prisons right now who will never walk out free and who will never commit suicide. And people who are sentenced to death typically spend years upon years trying to put it off and change their sentencing to life in prison. Therefore, based on the actual facts we can conclude that the typical person faced with the option prefers life in prison compared to a death sentence. Based on this fact, it is my belief that life in prison is not the "ultimate price" or worse punishment as you have stated. If it were that would mean people who received life in prison would be appealing for the death sentence, which doesn't happen.

WickedLou9 · 09-25-2007, 05:30 PM

I don't even think we need to have the debate about what is worse, death or life in prison. IMO it's irrelevant. It's not a deterant, and there exists the possibility of executing an innocent person. There is no reason for it other than for retribution, which, as a moral person, I don't think we should be condoning. And as a Christian especially I don't think there is any way to justify it.

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't even think we need to have the debate about what is worse, death or life in prison. IMO it's irrelevant. It's not a deterant

Life in prison isn't a deterrent either.

and there exists the possibility of executing an innocent person. There is no reason for it other than for retribution, which, as a moral person, I don't think we should be condoning. And as a Christian especially I don't think there is any way to justify it.

The possibility of executing an innocent person is becoming even more rare given new DNA standards needed in most cases. However, it is still possible.

As a side note, did you know that Mexico won't extradite a criminal if they have the possibility of being given a life sentence in the US? The reasons for it: it's inhumane, it's vengeance, it's not justice, it doesn't deter crime, etc.... basically the same reasons people argue against capital punishment. It really just boils down to political views in the end.

Stylerod · 09-25-2007, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

But let's compare apples to apples. Crimes that get the death penalty are crimes where people aren't getting out of prison...ever.

Sure they do

The former Washougal resident and convicted murderer escaped from the Florence Correction Center in Arizona at 1 a.m. Monday

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- FBI agents and U.S. marshals are searching for a convicted murderer who escaped Wednesday from a federal prison in Louisiana.

Richard McNair, 47, is serving a life sentence in the U.S. penitentiary in Pollock, Louisiana

Two convicted murderers serving time at a prison in Florence overcame a guard and then used ladders to slip over prison fences early Monday, authorities said.

Murderer makes dramatic hospital escape

A Cook County Jail inmate stabbed four people including the correctional officer accompanying him to a doctor's appointment at Stroger Hospital on Thursday afternoon, authorities said.

Donkey® · 09-25-2007, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

I don't know where you're getting your figures but more people commit suicide in prisons than outside prisons. So I don't understand your argument. Perhaps I need to clarify.

What? I guess I am not understanding your argument. If you say in one post that "OMG prisoners are NOT committing suicide" then say "more people commit suicide in prison" I don't see your point? If more people commit suicide in prison...then how is prison something pleasant?

Originally Posted by JaJae

Your argument was that life in prison is a worse sentence than death. My argument is that we have thousands of people in prisons right now who will never walk out free and who will never commit suicide. And people who are sentenced to death typically spend years upon years trying to put it off and change their sentencing to life in prison. Therefore, based on the actual facts we can conclude that the typical person faced with the option prefers life in prison compared to a death sentence. Based on this fact, it is my belief that life in prison is not the "ultimate price" or worse punishment as you have stated. If it were that would mean people who received life in prison would be appealing for the death sentence, which doesn't happen.

A lot of the death penalty appeals are automatic as well as brought on by groups on the outside...not the prisoners themselves. I think you're also confusing adaptation to having fun. Life in prison is not fun...that doesn't mean people don't adapt to it. Do they make the most of what they have? Sure...that doesn't mean they are enjoying life. Nobody commits a crime saying "well, I am going to get life so I am looking forward to it." On the same token, nobody commits a crime and says "wait a minute...i'll get the death penalty so maybe I shouldn't do it?" There is NO deterrent factor. So while you want to argue the semantics of "which is worse"...the bottom line is neither are good. At WORST, they are equal. But again, it comes back to the question "what justifies the death penalty as a punishment?" You have yet to show any justification for it.

Donkey® · 09-25-2007, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Sure they do

Talk about irrelevant. These guys just as easily could have escaped while waiting for execution as well.

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What? I guess I am not understanding your argument. If you say in one post that "OMG prisoners are NOT committing suicide" then say "more people commit suicide in prison" I don't see your point? If more people commit suicide in prison...then how is prison something pleasant?

They're not committing suicide at an alarming rate. The suicide rate is definitely higher than if they weren't in prison though. But it's not that high to where it would seem most people in prison for life would prefer to be dead.

A lot of the death penalty appeals are automatic as well as brought on by groups on the outside...not the prisoners themselves.

If the prisoners didn't want to appeal they don't have to appear. It's so automatic because they all want to appeal. Nobody is twisting their arm. There's nothing wrong with assisting them in setting up appeals. The fact that they're essentially automatic or that there's people clammering all over to try to save them from such a harsh sentence should be more evidence that the punishment is more severe than life in prison rather than the other way around.

I think you're also confusing adaptation to having fun. Life in prison is not fun...that doesn't mean people don't adapt to it.

I've never said prison is fun. It's not fun. It sucks. But compared to being dead it's doable...

On the same token, nobody commits a crime and says "wait a minute...i'll get the death penalty so maybe I shouldn't do it?" There is NO deterrent factor. So while you want to argue the semantics of "which is worse"...the bottom line is neither are good. At WORST, they are equal. But again, it comes back to the question "what justifies the death penalty as a punishment?" You have yet to show any justification for it.

There's no deterrent factor in life sentence either, but when the crime is fitting we still issue it. Just because a punishment doesn't deter a crime doesn't mean we shouldn't punish people for their crimes in accordance to what society feels is necessary. If a state wants to have a death sentence they should be able to. NJ has the death sentence on the books, but we don't ever use it. I'm fine with that. I'm not necessarily for or against capital punishment. I'm for the states being able to have it if they desire. It's a punishment for a crime beyond life in prison when life in prison isn't enough of a punishment. For example, Saddam. In my opinion he deserved to be hanged. And I'm glad he was. I don't feel life in a prison would have been justice. There are some times where the crime is so great that capital punishment is the only form a justice. And if a state wants to allow it, they should be able to.

Stylerod · 09-25-2007, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Talk about irrelevant. These guys just as easily could have escaped while waiting for execution as well.

Not irrelevent at all. A 20 year old gets the death penalty because he raped and murdered your daughter. He is convicted by DNA and other evidence. He is given a death sentance. He spends his 7-10 years trying to get appeals and dies when he is 30. That limits his escape chance to 10 years instead of 50.

WickedLou9 · 09-25-2007, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Life in prison isn't a deterrent either.

The possibility of executing an innocent person is becoming even more rare given new DNA standards needed in most cases. However, it is still possible.

As a side note, did you know that Mexico won't extradite a criminal if they have the possibility of being given a life sentence in the US? The reasons for it: it's inhumane, it's vengeance, it's not justice, it doesn't deter crime, etc.... basically the same reasons people argue against capital punishment. It really just boils down to political views in the end.

I know that it's more rare now, but it's still there and can never be eliminated. Executing an innocent person is a horrible thing.
Well you have to do SOMETHING with them, and obviosuly letting them go free is not an option. So given the choice between life in prison and the death penalty I would prefer we use life in prison. Who knows, maybe that person will have a revelation and try to do some good with thier life. Maybe they will try and work with troubled youth to keep them from making the same mistakes. I don't think we can say for sure that a persons life has no value and will never have value. By putting someone to death we are saying that we know with 100% certainty that they are guilty, We know that they will never do anything worthwile with thier lives. We know that the world will be better off with them dead now instead of dead in 30 years.
We just don't know any of these things for sure. The death penalty offers no real benefits that I can think of, other than the fact that you can never escape from death but even so, escapes are rare and usually they are caught within hours.

Kytro · 09-25-2007, 08:20 PM

Execution is revenge plain and simple. It is about making people feel better, not about punishment.

Most of the developed world realizes this and rightly leaves the practice behind.

Dead people don't care they are dead, it isn't a "punishment". People don't want to die, so they hate the idea of being put to death, but once it is done, they cease to care.

JaJae · 09-25-2007, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

Execution is revenge plain and simple. It is about making people feel better, not about punishment.

Most of the developed world realizes this and rightly leaves the practice behind.

Dead people don't care they are dead, it isn't a "punishment". People don't want to die, so they hate the idea of being put to death, but once it is done, they cease to care.

What makes capital punishment revenge, but life in prison punishment?

Stylerod · 09-25-2007, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

What makes capital punishment revenge, but life in prison punishment?

I'm actually ok with revenge.

I see nothing wrong with it in the case of someone murdering someone else. Especially when someone murders a child.

JaJae · 09-26-2007, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I'm actually ok with revenge. I see nothing wrong with it in the case of someone murdering someone else. Especially when someone murders a child.

I just disagree with separate classifications. It's an appeal to emotion. One is revenge and the other is punishment... what's the difference other than one you agree with and one you don't?

I could say a police department taking away my license was revenge for a DUI, yet arresting me for a DUI is punishment. We can sit here all day long and play the name game, in reality it boils down to one we agree with and one we don't. It's an appeal to emotion and really nothing more.