US Snipers using bait tactics may be a war crime

Ardentfrost · 09-26-2007, 02:09 PM

The Raw Story | U.S. sniper 'bait and kill' tactics may be a war crime

U.S. sniper 'bait and kill' tactics may be a war crime

A classified program used by U.S. military snipers has come under scrutiny in recent days. The Washington Post reports that, "A Pentagon group has encouraged some U.S. military snipers in Iraq to target suspected insurgents by scattering pieces of 'bait,' such as detonation cords, plastic explosives and ammunition, and then killing Iraqis who pick up the items, according to military court documents."

The secrecy of the plan was ended during an murder investigation involving three snipers who allegedly used bait items to make shootings seem legitimate. While it's unclear whether the three alleged shootings, which took place within months of the program's implementation, were part of the classified program specifically, "defense attorneys argue that the program may have opened the door to the soldiers' actions because it blurred the legal lines of killing in a complex war zone."

In documents retrieved by The Washington Post from family members of one accused soldier, a leader of an elite sniper scout platoon said "members of the U.S. military's Asymmetric Warfare Group visited his unit in January and later passed along ammunition boxes filled with the 'drop items' to be used 'to disrupt the AIF [Anti-Iraq Forces] attempts at harming Coalition Forces and give us the upper hand in a fight.'"

The baiting program should be rigorously examined, says Eugene Fidell, the president of the National Institute of Military Justice, because it raises frightening possibilities.

"In a country that is awash in armaments and magazines and implements of war," he said, "if every time somebody picked up something that was potentially useful as a weapon, you might as well ask every Iraqi to walk around with a target on his back."

Despite the new inquiries, it is not clear whether the program was isolated to one Iraqi region or how many people were killed using the tactics.

There's also a video from CNN if you follow the link.

This is pretty underhanded. Leaving out possibly valuable or dangerous items and shooting anyone who tries to pick it up? I'm sorry, but if I saw some abandoned explosives on the side of the street, I'd pick it up and take it to officials. Guess if I tried to do that in Iraq, I'd be dead.

DosEquis · 09-26-2007, 02:25 PM

I am ok with using bait, but the bait must attract the real enemy. We can't just keep killing people on speculation... especially if you are trying to win the 'hearts and minds'.

WickedLou9 · 09-26-2007, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I am ok with using bait, but the bait must attract the real enemy. We can't just keep killing people on speculation... especially if you are trying to win the 'hearts and minds'.

How would you know if it's the real enemy though? I mean if I saw some wierd shit on the side of the road I would go and see what it was.

Scrum · 09-26-2007, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I mean if I saw some wierd shit on the side of the road I would go and see what it was.

Not in Iraq you wouldn't.

6SpeedTA95 · 09-26-2007, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I am ok with using bait, but the bait must attract the real enemy. We can't just keep killing people on speculation... especially if you are trying to win the 'hearts and minds'.

And we have a winner.

I agree 100%

DosEquis · 09-26-2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

How would you know if it's the real enemy though? I mean if I saw some wierd shit on the side of the road I would go and see what it was.

Exactly.. so if we do not have any bait that will get the real enemy we should probably stay away from it.

Roonie · 09-26-2007, 02:56 PM

Leave a pile of rocket launchers in the street. That will attract them.

WickedLou9 · 09-26-2007, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Roonie

Leave a pile of rocket launchers in the street. That will attract them.

It will attract a bunch of kids that want to see what they are.

Ardentfrost · 09-26-2007, 04:29 PM

lol, wow, people are ok with even this. I'm sorry, but I'm not a terrorist, drug user, gun fanatic, or child molester, but if you left a bomb, a bag of cocaine, an uzi, or a naked 8 year old on the street, I would most certainly stop and try to figure out what to do with the [whatever] so that someone who IS one of those things doesn't get a hold of it, or so someone doesn't get hurt, etc...

Iraq may be different. Maybe all regular Iraqis just leave bombs laying in the streets where kids can find them, so the only people going to pick them up are terrorists (or kids?), but I'd be willing to bet there are well-meaning people in Iraq too.

I have no problem with sting operations. Laying some random shit on the road and sniping people who try to pick it up guarantees nothing.

Scrum · 09-26-2007, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It will attract a bunch of kids that want to see what they are.

What are kids in Iraq but future insurgents? amirite?

Stylerod · 09-26-2007, 05:04 PM

Yeah, this seems weird. I mean, who wouldn't stop to pick something like that up?

Ardentfrost · 09-26-2007, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yeah, this seems weird. I mean, who wouldn't stop to pick something like that up?

I've been racking my brain to try to figure out how they could do this in such a way to guarantee they're only killing bad guys. If they told who they thought were "good guys," there's no way they could get the word out to all the good guys (or at least neutral guys). And if someone they thought was good turned out to be bad, then the bad guys would know the trick and possibly even get good/neutral guys to pick up the bag for them.

I dunno. I can't justify this method at all, but if someone has any other ideas...

WickedLou9 · 09-26-2007, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I've been racking my brain to try to figure out how they could do this in such a way to guarantee they're only killing bad guys. If they told who they thought were "good guys," there's no way they could get the word out to all the good guys (or at least neutral guys). And if someone they thought was good turned out to be bad, then the bad guys would know the trick and possibly even get good/neutral guys to pick up the bag for them.

I dunno. I can't justify this method at all, but if someone has any other ideas...

Maybe that it is why it's a war crime.

6SpeedTA95 · 09-26-2007, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

lol, wow, people are ok with even this. I'm sorry, but I'm not a terrorist, drug user, gun fanatic, or child molester, but if you left a bomb, a bag of cocaine, an uzi, or a naked 8 year old on the street, I would most certainly stop and try to figure out what to do with the [whatever] so that someone who IS one of those things doesn't get a hold of it, or so someone doesn't get hurt, etc...

Iraq may be different. Maybe all regular Iraqis just leave bombs laying in the streets where kids can find them, so the only people going to pick them up are terrorists (or kids?), but I'd be willing to bet there are well-meaning people in Iraq too.

I have no problem with sting operations. Laying some random shit on the road and sniping people who try to pick it up guarantees nothing.

Exactly which is the problem as Dos I thought clearly stated.

RMNIXON · 09-26-2007, 07:54 PM

This kind of bait bothers me. It would be better to try to leak info to militants. Suggest weapons are storred somewhere. Then get the guys who show up and take it. But to just leave this stuff where anybody who is curious finds it sounds to wreckless.

JaJae · 09-26-2007, 08:07 PM

This is a very bad strategy to use.

Darko · 09-26-2007, 09:40 PM

Kodak moment... everyone agrees here.

six6ftr · 09-26-2007, 11:59 PM

I am very disappointed to hear that Military leadership agreed to this sort of behavior. Like everyone stated, there is no way of knowing who is the enemy and who is not.

kinggovernor · 09-27-2007, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

This is pretty underhanded. Leaving out possibly valuable or dangerous items and shooting anyone who tries to pick it up? I'm sorry, but if I saw some abandoned explosives on the side of the street, I'd pick it up and take it to officials. Guess if I tried to do that in Iraq, I'd be dead.

This would happen even if snipers weren't there. Iraqis know better than to mess around abandoned explosivevs

kinggovernor · 09-27-2007, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

lol, wow, people are ok with even this. I'm sorry, but I'm not a terrorist, drug user, gun fanatic, or child molester, but if you left a bomb, a bag of cocaine, an uzi, or a naked 8 year old on the street, I would most certainly stop and try to figure out what to do with the [whatever] so that someone who IS one of those things doesn't get a hold of it, or so someone doesn't get hurt, etc...

Iraq may be different. Maybe all regular Iraqis just leave bombs laying in the streets where kids can find them, so the only people going to pick them up are terrorists (or kids?), but I'd be willing to bet there are well-meaning people in Iraq too.

I have no problem with sting operations. Laying some random shit on the road and sniping people who try to pick it up guarantees nothing.

Iraqis don't touch anything, because they don't want to. If they touch an abandoned explosive, it might explode.

They also know that they are considered hostile targets if they are carrying RPGs or explosives, so they don't.