Pagan influence on the biblical narrative.

[Grouch]

I've been looking for sources that support the idea that the bible narrative has pagan influences. I'm looking for influences in the narrative not later traditions (christmas, Easter) that developed once the religion had been more or less formed.

So far ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance is the best cite but I've found but I'm looking for something a little more academic with ciations.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Grouch

I've been looking for sources that support the idea that the bible narrative has pagan influences. I'm looking for influences in the narrative not later traditions (christmas, Easter) that developed once the religion had been more or less formed.

So far ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance is the best cite but I've found but I'm looking for something a little more academic with ciations.

Can You give me an example of something that you are looking for? There is a referrence to Pagans adorning trees in gold and silver in the Bible and the three wise men were obviously Pagan as they followed the science of astrology which was very popular outside of Judea at the time. The star wasn't just some bright comet in the sky like is often portrayed otherwise Herod wouldn't have had to "inquire diligently" as to the where abouts of the star in the sky.

Also, the term Hel is also used in Norse Heathenism (Asatru) as a sort of Heaven like place.

An example of what you would like would be helpful.

[up|dn]

Have a look at this book, 'Pagan and Christian Creeds': Pagan and Christian Creeds Index
I'm not sure if it has what you're looking for as far as origins, rather than later traditions, but it definately goes into all of the similarities.

There are also a bunch of websites, but one that has a lot of citations is here: Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

Obviously one has to take all these things with a grain of salt, but there is a lot of information to be found there.

[up|dn]

Here's another website I had saved from a while back:
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth
ChristMythPart3
ChristMythPart4

If you're into books, I'd recommend this: Amazon.com: Secret Origins of the Bible: Books: Tim Callahan
It doesn't necessarily go into pagan origins per se, but is a good overview of a scholarly look at the Bible, and where many of its ideas can be traced in other cultures.

[Grouch]

Thanks for the links guys. Sorry this is kind of a general reply.

I am primarily looking for things like the Horus, Jesus connection. Which after doing about all the research possible on the internet is pretty much bogus as a vast majority of the similarities attributed to Horus have no primary source documentation to back them me. It just doesn't exist.

Or things like the Flood narrative. Where we have an example of a strikingly similar story in 3 different Mesopotamian accounts that all predate the OT by 1000 years.

[up|dn]

Originally Posted by Grouch

Thanks for the links guys. Sorry this is kind of a general reply.

I am primarily looking for things like the Horus, Jesus connection. Which after doing about all the research possible on the internet is pretty much bogus as a vast majority of the similarities attributed to Horus have no primary source documentation to back them me. It just doesn't exist.

Or things like the Flood narrative. Where we have an example of a strikingly similar story in 3 different Mesopotamian accounts that all predate the OT by 1000 years.

I've never found any direct ties between Horus and Jesus either, but the book 'The Jesus Mysteries' shows a lot of connections between Jesus and Osiris-Dionysis and the other Mystery religions. The sources that all the Horus-Jesus connections all seem to trace back to are from Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey, and they're not really very good sources. I'd be interested to know if you find more.

In ancient Egypt, Horus was 'god on earth', was the son of the Father-god Osiris, and also somehow the same as Osiris, and therefore a dying-ressurecting god (which are usually traceable to solar or vegetative gods). Horus is also the child on the lap of Isis, often seen in statues. That's really as far as the similarities go without going into guesswork. Unfortunately, we have almost no information about the Mystery religions (later Hellenic versions of the ancient religions), so there's a lot of guessing going on.

The following is from a teaching company lecture, it compares the Genesis Flood story to the one found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. You can also look up these stories yourself, including the Greek version of a flood myth, but I find it interesting that we're led to conclude that the Genesis version "borrowed" from the Mesopotamian version:

Why scholars believe the Biblical Flood story was copied/redacted from Babylonian sources:

Quote:
I. The Gilgamesh Epic was the literary classic of the ancient Near East, read far and wide, either in the original Akkadian (Babylonian) by people educated in that language (even if it was not their native tongue) or in translations into other languages (Hittite, Hurrian, and so on).

A. This lengthy (by ancient Near Eastern standards) composition is an epic poem about the search for immortality of the legendary king Gilgamesh (from the southern Mesopotamian city of Uruk).

B. Among the scenes narrated toward the end of the epic is Gilgamesh’s visit to Utnapishtim, the flood hero, who relates to Gilgamesh the story of the flood (occurring in Tablet XI of the 12-tablet composition).

II. The Babylonian flood story shares numerous similarities with the biblical flood story in Genesis 6–8, including the building materials for the ark, the dimensions, and the number of decks; the population of the ark and the detailed description of the flood; the mountaintop landing and the sending forth of a series of birds to determine that the land was dry; and finally, the fact that the hero sets everyone free and offers sacrifices to the deity.

A. Note that all translations agree on two of the building materials for the ark: wood and pitch. The third item is the subject of some discussion, however. The consonants in the biblical text, namely, QNYM, can be read as either qinnim, “rooms, compartments” (thus the traditional rendering), or qanim, “reeds” (thus some recent translations). We favor the latter understanding, especially because reeds constitute the third building material in the Gilgamesh Epic flood narrative.

B. Not only do all the aforementioned elements appear in both the biblical account and the Babylonian version, but these elements parallel each other in the same order as well. Even where there is room for some variation, the order in the two stories remains constant.

1. At the beginning of both stories, the first three elements appear in the order: materials, dimensions, number of decks.

2. In both stories, the mountaintop landing appears before the sending forth of the birds, even though the alternative order is possible.

3. At the end of both accounts, all are set free and the flood hero offers sacrifices, even though, once again, the alternative order is easily conceivable.

III. There are also two crucial differences between the two stories.

A. In the Gilgamesh Epic, it is not clear exactly why the gods decided to destroy the world, and it is also not clear why Utnapishtim was chosen to survive the flood. The biblical account includes a morality factor—the world was destroyed because of its immoral state; and Noah was chosen to survive the flood because he was righteous.

B. The biblical account introduces the covenant factor—God makes a covenant with Noah.

IV. The most likely explanation for the striking similarities between the two versions is this: The biblical account is borrowed from the Mesopotamian flood tradition, for the following reasons:

A. In general, greater societies influence lesser ones, and Babylonia was a major power in the ancient world, whereas Israel was a relatively minor player.

B. Flooding is typical of Mesopotamia but not of Canaan. The former gets more plentiful rainfall, and it has two major rivers running through the region, the Tigris and the Euphrates, both of which flood the Mesopotamian plain with relative frequency. The flood tradition obviously grew to legendary proportions, but presumably, one such real flooding formed the basis for the flood story. By contrast, flooding is impossible in the land of Canaan, with its lesser amount of rainfall and no major rivers.

C. The only geographical location mentioned in the biblical account is the mountains of Ararat, which are located in far northern Mesopotamia (around Lake Van, in modern-day eastern Turkey), near the headwaters of both the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

D. As noted above, the Gilgamesh Epic was the literary classic of the ancient world; thus, people in other cultures would have been familiar with it. Indeed, a fragment of the epic dated to c. 1400 B.C.E. (relating a scene known from Tablet VII of the 12-tablet version) was found in Megiddo, a city in northern Israel, not far from modern-day Haifa.

1. We have to assume that the local Canaanites at Megiddo were able to read this text in the original.

2. From the city of Ugarit, located in far northern Canaan, on the Mediterranean coast in northern Syria, we have another cuneiform tablet, describing another episode from the life of Gilgamesh (though not one known from the 12-tablet version).

3. How did somebody in, let’s say, the 10th or 9th or 8th century in Israel know about the Gilgamesh Epic? It might have been translated orally, perhaps, into Hebrew or Canaanite (recall that Hebrew and Canaanite are dialects of the same language).

E. In addition, the biblical tradition has Abraham originating from Mesopotamia, before he moves to the land of Canaan. Thus, it is possible that the earliest Hebrews would have brought the flood story with them.

F. The additions in the biblical account suggest that the Hebrew version is an expansion of the Babylonian version. This is far more likely than assuming that the Babylonians excised material from an Israelite version.

G. The end of Genesis 8 also contains a particular item that is very non-Israelite.

1. When Noah sacrifices to God, Genesis 8 tells us that God smelled the sweet savor of the sacrifices.

2. Of all the many times in the Bible where we have reference to the Israelites offering sacrifices, this is the only place in the Bible where we have a reference to God smelling the sacrifices.

3. God appears here almost in human fashion, which is something we would expect to find in the polytheistic world. Indeed, in Gilgamesh Epic, Tablet XI, line 161, we read, “the gods smelled the sweet savor” emanating from Utnapisthim’s sacrifice.

[AVengeance]

You just watched Zeitgeist, right? Many traditions, stories, and religious themes are reflective of one another, although this does not necessarily apply cause and effect to any of them. There are numerous flood stories, for example. To some, it lends credence to the Jew/Christian/Muslim belief of a worldwide flood and the survival of Noah and his family. To others, it just shows all religions are similar, and therefore fake.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

To others, it just shows all religions are similar, and therefore fake.

or maybe that a lot of modern religions are based around older and simpler religions????

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

You just watched Zeitgeist, right? Many traditions, stories, and religious themes are reflective of one another, although this does not necessarily apply cause and effect to any of them. There are numerous flood stories, for example. To some, it lends credence to the Jew/Christian/Muslim belief of a worldwide flood and the survival of Noah and his family. To others, it just shows all religions are similar, and therefore fake.

Much of Zeitgeist is full of shit. For the most part it is uneducated drivel made for the masses of idiots on youtube.

See the failures of the Jesus/Horus connection

[hillbilly]

Here's a few links that may or may not interest you...
Philologos | Mazzaroth by Frances Rolleston
The Heavens Declare The Glory Of God - Part 2



I had the great fortune of being able to study under a teacher who was fluent in both Hebrew & Greek, with a smattering of Aramaic. One thing I'm sure of, is that I don't really know anything. But I will say that there are 2 stories of floods in the Bible. One Great world wide flood (II Peter 3:5-7 & Jeremiah 4:23-28). And then came the flood of Noah's time, which covered all of that part of the earth.

To me this makes sense & also goes along with other culture's stories of world wide floods.

The Zeitgeist did nothing but bolster my own faith.

[up|dn]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

Here's a few links that may or may not interest you...
Philologos | Mazzaroth by Frances Rolleston
The Heavens Declare The Glory Of God - Part 2



I had the great fortune of being able to study under a teacher who was fluent in both Hebrew & Greek, with a smattering of Aramaic. One thing I'm sure of, is that I don't really know anything. But I will say that there are 2 stories of floods in the Bible. One Great world wide flood (II Peter 3:5-7 & Jeremiah 4:23-28). And then came the flood of Noah's time, which covered all of that part of the earth.

To me this makes sense & also goes along with other culture's stories of world wide floods.

The Zeitgeist did nothing but bolster my own faith.

No offense, but that sounds like some pretty serious special pleading. The story of Noah (and the other flood myths: Babylonian, Greek, etc.) are all about destroying all of humanity in a world-wide catastrophic event, and they take place in what I consider to be 'mythical time', seen as some era in the very ancient past. It doesn't explain a historical event so much as it explains how the "Golden Age" came to an end and how this age is one where things aren't as originally intended. I don't buy that there are 2 flood stories, any more than I buy that Jesus did similar things more than once in order to avoid any conflicts between the Gospel accounts. (We might have to go so far as to say Jesus was crucified twice, once on Passover day (Matthew, Mark, Luke) and once on the day of Preparation (Gospel of John)).

Jeremiah is using allegorical language that is very similar to Genesis 1, and is speaking about a vision of spiritual void, just like in the period prior to Creation.

2 Peter is simply referring back to the flood story and using it to bolster the prevalent opinion that this time the world would be destroyed by fire (something you'll also see in Revelation).

[Dumpy Dooby]

This is what I got up on my site: Christianity's Pagan Origins

I'm mirroring that from some Geocities site. I don't recall the original URL. I just downloaded the page (I don't trust Geocities sites to stay up), and uploaded it so I could read it from work.

[up|dn]

This is an interesting read:
500215: The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity

I've heard it said that Paul, in his epistles, purposely used Mystery religion language in order to make the Christian story appeal to the pagan Greeks. I guess that would be one way to explain the similarities. Another is that Christianity started as a Mystery religion, and the literal historical meaning came later. Yet another is that as pagans joined the Jesus movement, and started writing its religious texts (pseudonymously using Paul's name as author), it came to sound a lot like the other religious movements of the time. Another likely explanation is given by Martin Luther King in the above link. Whichever way you look at it, the similarities can't be dismissed too easily.

[DRK]

I think it's funny that most people associate the Christmas tree with Christianity, when it actually has Pagen roots.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by DRK

I think it's funny that most people associate the Christmas tree with Christianity, when it actually has Pagen roots.

it's spelled Pagan, two A's, fyi. and i think it's funny when people assume that paganism is whatever religion people were or belief structure they had before christianity came along to save the world... lol. there were PLENTY of different religions before christianity came along. we have to remember as far as religions go, christianity is still fairly new on the playing field....

[hereticzero]

It is impossible to track down the beginning of fairy tales, otherwise religion would not have such power in our lives. Most of what passes for 'truth' in the bible or religion has little to do with truth and more to do with someone's creative imagination for control of the human masses. The theology of Christianity was beaten into our subconsciousness over two thousand years, long enough for the legends to be absorbed as truth. There is no truth in religion, any religion. The only use for religion is to pass along the doctrine of government in order to keep the public pacified. There is no narrative to the bible, everything is taught according to the denomination you attend. There is no one doctrine for the church. Catholics have different denominations as do the Protestants and everything they teach oozes from the bible, not an additional narrative for the fairytales. Miracles are fairytales, otherwise, where are the stories from other countries or languages about Jesus doing miracles. That should have been proof enough. The Catholic church destroyed what was left of the church of Jerusalem by 325 CE because of heresy in the church Jesus built. The heresy was that they would not participate in the religion at the direction of the Pope and Rome. What the church of Jerusalem taught, no one knows because no one is alive to tell their story.

Short answer is that there is no narrative from the early church.

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by hereticzero

The Catholic church destroyed what was left of the church of Jerusalem by 325 CE because of heresy in the church Jesus built. The heresy was that they would not participate in the religion at the direction of the Pope and Rome. What the church of Jerusalem taught, no one knows because no one is alive to tell their story.

Short answer is that there is no narrative from the early church.

I'd like to see your citations regarding this.

There was no organized "Catholic Church" in 325 CE nor did they destroy a Church of Jerusalem in that same year. 325 was the year of the council of Nacia, but that had to do with ideas that Arian had; who was located in Alexandria.

maybe you are privi to info I am not.

[hereticzero]

Originally Posted by Grouch

I'd like to see your citations regarding this.

There was no organized "Catholic Church" in 325 CE nor did they destroy a Church of Jerusalem in that same year. 325 was the year of the council of Nacia, but that had to do with ideas that Arian had; who was located in Alexandria.

maybe you are privi to info I am not.

Now you know the beginning of the deception. Congratulations! You are the first person to challenge what they read. I posted that to get a response out of someone, anyone that actually reads and thinks about what they read. If the Catholic church was not created until around 313 CE, what does that tell you about the Apostolic Succession? There is none. There is no evidence Peter was ever in Rome as a Bishop or a Pope. The church claims lineage to Peter as first Pope which could not be done if he were dead nearly 300 years. Prior to 325, the church in Jerusalem were not practicing Catholics. The church found in Jerusalem after 325 was populated with those who followed the edicts of the Catholic church which was given power by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The original church of Jerusalem went underground or were killed off for heresy following 325 CE. The church was a political power exercising its new authority over the Roman empire which included Jerusalem. Those who opposed the Catholic edicts faced arrest, which often led to a final performance in the circus of Rome--meaning they were fed to the lions for entertainment. Was the Catholic church solely responsible? No, there were many killed by pagan religions in the Empire as well. But the Catholic church had a hand making dissenters disappear. Constantine was tolerant of Christianity but only his version of Christianity which was the Catholic version of Christianity--which was the only version in existence that called itself Christian. There is no indication the congregation of Jerusalem ever declared themselves Christian or Catholic and their lack of enthusiasm led to their demise. What we have left to rely upon is the Catholic version of history which is dubious at best. I will stand by my assertions that the Catholic church caused for earlier believers who would not bow a knee to to the church of Rome to be arrested, imprisoned, and murdered for not converting to Catholicism. When I can dig up my citations for you, I will be happy to post them for you.