Originally Posted by JaJae I think it is the mainstream view that humans are the leading cause of catastrophic climate change. In fact, when I turn on the news I'm told this all the time. exactly....
11-09-2007, 11:15 AM
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| no es mi culpa  Independent Beantown 
| Originally Posted by JaJae exactly. 
__________________ There is small disproportion betwixt a fool who useth not wit because he hath it not and him that useth it not when it should avail him. | ||||
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11-09-2007, 11:56 AM
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| helluo librorum The Lab Moderator  Humanist Chicago Suburbs
| Originally Posted by JaJae No, you are told that the human portion is the only piece we can control.
You are mistaking "leading cause" with "leading cause that we have any control over". | ||||
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11-09-2007, 12:30 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur.  Reform Party NJ
| Originally Posted by Scrum No I'm not:
Scientists: Humans 'very likely' cause global warming - CNN.com Global warming: A natural cycle or human result? - CNN.com I can go on and on. The argument is that CO2 is the most important and most severe driving factor in climate change and that human influences on CO2 levels are what's causing the shift of global climate change. That is the representation within the media. When has the mainstream media ever talked about any other factors of climate change other than CO2 and linked it to humans? It's very very rare. It's happening more now that Al Gore got his Nobel Peace Prize, but before then it rarely if ever happened. The IPCC report states that there's a greater than 90% chance that HUMANS are CAUSING most of the global warming. Science: Global Climate Report - washingtonpost.com This is the BS they're throwing down our throats... Humans are what's driving global warming.
__________________ No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair. Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid: As we look back in history, the Founding Fathers would be cringing to hear people talking about eliminating earmarks. Last edited by JaJae; 11-09-2007 at 12:36 PM. | ||||
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11-10-2007, 12:16 AM
| #104 | ||||
| Friend to all.  Socialist Maryland
| So now we're going with what the mainstream media says as gospel? I don't get it. I think we're all smart enough to form our own opinions. There is plenty of evidence showing the world is getting warmer (ice is a pretty good indicator). There is scientific evidence showing that man at LEAST contributes to global warming. Anyone and I mean ANYONE stating that "man is the ONLY cause of global warming" should be dismissed outright...just like the people who claim "man is not contributing at all to global warming." | ||||
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11-10-2007, 01:19 AM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| Originally Posted by Donkey® The mainstream media, the IPCC, the generic statements made about global warming in public... it's all basically the same, they essentially blame global warming directly on humans.
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11-10-2007, 02:01 AM
| #106 | ||||
| Friend to all. Socialist Maryland
| Originally Posted by JaJae That just isn't true.
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11-10-2007, 05:58 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| In response to the previous article I posted an ABC affiliate ran a story.. KLTV 7 Tyler-Longview-Jacksonville, TX: Local Meteorologists Debate Global Warming
Link All good points, they sound very familiar to what I've been saying. Last edited by JaJae; 11-10-2007 at 06:08 PM. | ||||
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11-11-2007, 02:21 AM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator  Capitalist California
| Originally Posted by JaJae Both graphs were dishonest, and both have been proved to be dishonest. Al Gore used uncited data (it was at the time, anyway), and the when it his sources were discovered, it was also discovered that there hadn't been any peer review. In fact, in that clip Gore even says, "This is the first time anybody outside of a small group of scientists have seen this image." The graph that is used during the rebuttal is a bit worse, in some regard. While the focus of discussion was on the post-war economic boom, the graph itself has been admitted to be skewed. Decades were squished together and spread apart to make the graph appear more dramatic. The point was to make the post-war economic boom decline appear more substantial than the incline from the late 70's until now.
That's not to attack the actual data that was used by either side. I'm just pointing out that they're both very sketchy sources.
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11-11-2007, 02:48 AM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator Capitalist California
| Originally Posted by JaJae I definitely agree with this point. The IPCC cites a temperature record that was established based on independent data. Just because they cite it as credible, it doesn't mean that anyone that agrees with it is necessarily agreeing with the IPCC's conclusion; just one premise.
That's about as silly as saying that since the KKK accepts Jesus as their lord and savior, then all Christians are racist. "oh but you're contradicting yourself if you think their conclusions are wrong!" People read data and draw different conclusions. There is a correlation between greenhouse gases (specifically CO2) and global temperature. The IPCC saw the correlation and concluded a causality. The other climatologists saw the correlation and concluded something entirely different. The fact remains, however, that the data itself is objective and a valid piece of work to cite. And to turn it around, we can say that anthropogenic global warming advocates all believe everything in the Great Global Warming Swindle because they agree with temperature record that is cited in the documentary. Therefore, they're all contradicting themselves.  | ||||
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11-12-2007, 09:57 AM
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| no es mi culpa Independent Beantown
| Originally Posted by Donkey® donkey, i agree with your last sentence, unfortunately I think you're giving the masses too much credit. most people don't take the time to form their own opinions on go along with what the majority of the surrounding opinion is. a good majority of the population are sheep. everyone on this forum is not in that majority as we all have opinions and question each other incessantly. but go to mainstream America and that doesn't really happen very often. after all look at how Bush got re-elected in the red states.
If there are people shouting to the wind, "stop global warming!!", "we can make a difference", then the majority would think by proxy we are causing global warming. they wouldn't stop to actually think "what is global warming?", they simply don't think, they accept at face value what others are telling them as truth. look at this website and the questions and answers. does it or does it not portray global warming as a strictly human-caused problem? NRDC: Global Warming Basics
recorded history???? of course we didn't record the average temperatures in the last ice age! or have the means to record the temperatures the last time the planet had a warming trend. this website is specifically spun to make it look like global warming is strictly caused by the human race. | ||||
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12-06-2007, 08:46 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| IPPC Falsifying data again?? IPCC Falsifies Sea Level Data : December 2007 : ReasonMcLucus : My Telegraph
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12-13-2007, 05:51 PM
| #112 | ||||
| Banned  Conservative Government is another way to say Better Than You
| It seems people are coming around to the realization taht the global warming scam is blown way out of proportion. If the NYT is admitting such possibilities, then maybe the climate change in hell has changed to freezing?
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12-14-2007, 10:37 AM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| Open Letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations Print E-mail Written by 100 Prominent Scientists Friday, 14 December 2007 [Illustrations, footnotes and references available in PDF version] For the Full Report in PDF Form, please click here. Dear Mr. Secretary-General, Re: UN climate conference taking the World in entirely the wrong direction It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages. Geological, archaeological, oral and written histories all attest to the dramatic challenges posed to past societies from unanticipated changes in temperature, precipitation, winds and other climatic variables. We therefore need to equip nations to become resilient to the full range of these natural phenomena by promoting economic growth and wealth generation. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued increasingly alarming conclusions about the climatic influences of human-produced carbon dioxide (CO2), a non-polluting gas that is essential to plant photosynthesis. While we understand the evidence that has led them to view CO2 emissions as harmful, the IPCC's conclusions are quite inadequate as justification for implementing policies that will markedly diminish future prosperity. In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions. On top of which, because attempts to cut emissions will slow development, the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it. The IPCC Summaries for Policy Makers are the most widely read IPCC reports amongst politicians and non-scientists and are the basis for most climate change policy formulation. Yet these Summaries are prepared by a relatively small core writing team with the final drafts approved line-by-line by *government *representatives. The great *majority of IPCC contributors and *reviewers, and the tens of thousands of other scientists who are qualified to comment on these matters, are not involved in the preparation of these documents. The summaries therefore cannot properly be represented as a consensus view among experts. Contrary to the impression left by the IPCC Summary reports: · Recent observations of phenomena such as glacial retreats, sea-level rise and the migration of temperature-sensitive species are not evidence for abnormal climate change, for none of these changes has been shown to lie outside the bounds of known natural variability. · The average rate of warming of 0.1 to 0. 2 degrees Celsius per decade recorded by satellites during the late 20th century falls within known natural rates of warming and cooling over the last 10,000 years. · Leading scientists, including some senior IPCC representatives, acknowledge that today's computer models cannot predict climate. Consistent with this, and despite computer projections of temperature rises, there has been no net global warming since 1998. That the current temperature plateau follows a late 20th-century period of warming is consistent with the continuation today of natural multi-decadal or millennial climate cycling. In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is "settled," significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming. But because IPCC working groups were generally instructed (see ) to consider work published only through May, 2005, these important findings are not included in their reports; i.e., the IPCC assessment reports are already materially outdated. The UN climate conference in Bali has been planned to take the world along a path of severe CO2 restrictions, ignoring the lessons apparent from the failure of the Kyoto Protocol, the chaotic nature of the European CO2 trading market, and the ineffectiveness of other costly initiatives to curb greenhouse gas emissions. Balanced cost/benefit analyses provide no support for the introduction of global measures to cap and reduce energy consumption for the purpose of restricting CO2 emissions. Furthermore, it is irrational to apply the "precautionary principle" because many scientists recognize that both climatic coolings and warmings are realistic possibilities over the medium-term future. The current UN focus on "fighting climate change," as illustrated in the Nov. 27 UN Development Programme's Human Development Report, is distracting governments from adapting to the threat of inevitable natural climate changes, whatever forms they may take. National and international planning for such changes is needed, with a focus on helping our most vulnerable citizens adapt to conditions that lie ahead. Attempts to prevent global climate change from occurring are ultimately futile, and constitute a tragic misallocation of resources that would be better spent on humanity's real and pressing problems. Yours faithfully, [List of signatories] Copy to: Heads of state of countries of the signatory persons. Signatories of an open letter on the UN climate-conference Published: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 The following are signatories to the Dec. 13th letter to the Ban Ki-moon, Secretary-General of the United Nations on the UN Climate conference in Bali: Don Aitkin, PhD, Professor, social scientist, retired vice-chancellor and president, University of Canberra, Australia William J.R. Alexander, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa; Member, UN Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000 Bjarne Andresen, PhD, physicist, Professor, The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark Geoff L. Austin, PhD, FNZIP, FRSNZ, Professor, Dept. of Physics, University of Auckland, New Zealand Timothy F. Ball, PhD, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg Ernst-Georg Beck, Dipl. Biol., Biologist, Merian-Schule Freiburg, Germany Sonja A. Boehmer-Christiansen, PhD, Reader, Dept. of Geography, Hull University, U.K.; Editor, Energy & Environment journal Chris C. Borel, PhD, remote sensing scientist, U.S. Reid A. Bryson, PhD, DSc, DEngr, UNE P. Global 500 Laureate; Senior Scientist, Center for Climatic Research; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology, of Geography, and of Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin Dan Carruthers, M.Sc., wildlife biology consultant specializing in animal ecology in Arctic and Subarctic regions, Alberta R.M. Carter, PhD, Professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia Ian D. Clark, PhD, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa Richard S. Courtney, PhD, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K. Willem de Lange, PhD, Dept. of Earth and Ocean Sciences, School of Science and Engineering, Waikato University, New Zealand David Deming, PhD (Geophysics), Associate Professor, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Oklahoma Freeman J. Dyson, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J. Don J. Easterbrook, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Geology, Western Washington University Lance Endersbee, Emeritus Professor, former dean of Engineering and Pro-Vice Chancellor of Monasy University, Australia Hans Erren, Doctorandus, geophysicist and climate specialist, Sittard, The Netherlands Robert H. Essenhigh, PhD, E.G. Bailey Professor of Energy Conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University Christopher Essex, PhD, Professor of Applied Mathematics and Associate Director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario David Evans, PhD, mathematician, carbon accountant, computer and electrical engineer and head of 'Science Speak,' Australia William Evans, PhD, editor, American Midland Naturalist; Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame Stewart Franks, PhD, Professor, Hydroclimatologist, University of Newcastle, Australia R. W. Gauldie, PhD, Research Professor, Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, School of Ocean Earth Sciences and Technology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa Lee C. Gerhard, PhD, Senior Scientist Emeritus, University of Kansas; former director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey Gerhard Gerlich, Professor for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics, Institut für Mathematische Physik der TU Braunschweig, Germany Albrecht Glatzle, PhD, sc.agr., Agro-Biologist and Gerente ejecutivo, INTTAS, Paraguay Fred Goldberg, PhD, Adjunct Professor, Royal Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Stockholm, Sweden Vincent Gray, PhD, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001, Wellington, New Zealand William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University and Head of the Tropical Meteorology Project Howard Hayden, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut Louis Hissink MSc, M.A.I.G., editor, AIG News, and consulting geologist, Perth, Western Australia Craig D. Idso, PhD, Chairman, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Arizona Sherwood B. Idso, PhD, President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, AZ, USA Andrei Illarionov, PhD, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity; founder and director of the Institute of Economic Analysis Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman - Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland Jon Jenkins, PhD, MD, computer modelling - virology, NSW, Australia Wibjorn Karlen, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden Olavi Kärner, Ph.D., Research Associate, Dept. of Atmospheric Physics, Institute of Astrophysics and Atmospheric Physics, Toravere, Estonia Joel M. Kauffman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia David Kear, PhD, FRSNZ, CMG, geologist, former Director-General of NZ Dept. of Scientific & Industrial Research, New Zealand Madhav Khandekar, PhD, former research scientist, Environment Canada; editor, Climate Research (2003-05); editorial board member, Natural Hazards; IPCC expert reviewer 2007 William Kininmonth M.Sc., M.Admin., former head of Australia's National Climate Centre and a consultant to the World Meteorological organization's Commission for Climatology Jan J.H. Kop, MSc Ceng FICE (Civil Engineer Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers), Emeritus Prof. of Public Health Engineering, Technical University Delft, The Netherlands Prof. R.W.J. Kouffeld, Emeritus Professor, Energy Conversion, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Salomon Kroonenberg, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Geotechnology, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations), The Netherlands The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist; Chairman of the Central Europe Trust; former Chancellor of the Exchequer, U.K. Douglas Leahey, PhD, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary David R. Legates, PhD, Director, Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware Marcel Leroux, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand William Lindqvist, PhD, independent consulting geologist, Calif. Richard S. Lindzen, PhD, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology A.J. Tom van Loon, PhD, Professor of Geology (Quaternary Geology), Adam Mickiewicz University, Poznan, Poland; former President of the European Association of Science Editors Anthony R. Lupo, PhD, Associate Professor of Atmospheric Science, Dept. of Soil, Environmental, and Atmospheric Science, University of Missouri-Columbia Richard Mackey, PhD, Statistician, Australia Horst Malberg, PhD, Professor for Meteorology and Climatology, Institut für Meteorologie, Berlin, Germany John Maunder, PhD, Climatologist, former President of the Commission for Climatology of the World Meteorological Organization (89-97), New Zealand Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K. Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph John McLean, PhD, climate data analyst, computer scientist, Australia Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition; Director, Centre for Resource Management Studies, New Zealand Fred Michel, PhD, Director, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Associate Professor of Earth Sciences, Carleton University Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics, Queen's University Asmunn Moene, PhD, former head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist, Director of the IPA's Deregulation Unit, Australia Nils-Axel Morner, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden Lubos Motl, PhD, Physicist, former Harvard string theorist, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic John Nicol, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Physics, James Cook University, Australia David Nowell, M.Sc., Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, former chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa James J. O'Brien, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Meteorology and Oceanography, Florida State University Cliff Ollier, PhD, Professor Emeritus (Geology), Research Fellow, University of Western Australia Garth W. Paltridge, PhD, atmospheric physicist, Emeritus Professor and former Director of the Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia R. Timothy Patterson, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University Al Pekarek, PhD, Associate Professor of Geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minnesota Ian Plimer, PhD, Professor of Geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia Brian Pratt, PhD, Professor of Geology, Sedimentology, University of Saskatchewan Harry N.A. Priem, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Planetary Geology and Isotope Geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences Alex Robson, PhD, Economics, Australian National University Colonel F.P.M. Rombouts, Branch Chief - Safety, Quality and Environment, Royal Netherland Air Force R.G. Roper, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Institute of Technology Arthur Rorsch, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, B.C. Tom V. Segalstad, PhD, (Geology/Geochemistry), Head of the Geological Museum and Associate Professor of Resource and Environmental Geology, University of Oslo, Norway Gary D. Sharp, PhD, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, CA S. Fred Singer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia and former director Weather Satellite Service L. Graham Smith, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario Roy W. Spencer, PhD, climatologist, Principal Research Scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville Peter Stilbs, TeknD, Professor of Physical Chemistry, Research Leader, School of Chemical Science and Engineering, KTH (Royal Institute of Technology), Stockholm, Sweden Hendrik Tennekes, PhD, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute Dick Thoenes, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemical Engineering, Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager - Industrial Energy Efficiency, Adjunct Associate Professor of Engineering Science, University of Maryland at College Park; Dept of Energy, Washington, DC Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD, geologist and paleoclimatologist, climate change consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand Len Walker, PhD, Power Engineering, Australia Edward J. Wegman, PhD, Department of Computational and Data Sciences, George Mason University, Virginia Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management, Production Management and Logistics, University of Technolgy and Economics Berlin, Germany Boris Winterhalter, PhD, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland David E. Wojick, PhD, P.Eng., energy consultant, Virginia Raphael Wust, PhD, Lecturer, Marine Geology/Sedimentology, James Cook University, Australia A. Zichichi, PhD, President of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva, Switzerland; Emeritus Professor of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy | ||||
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12-14-2007, 02:28 PM
| #114 | ||||
| Banned Conservative Government is another way to say Better Than You
| Perhaps this is the beginning of a new thread on global warming, as it's becoming clearer and clearer that this debate is about one thing...control. At the moment there is an ongoing UN meeting in Bali trying to figure out what to do about global warming on a global scale. This is the same meeting that Al Gore is bashing the very country that he helped lead as vice president. The very same country that makes it possible for him to make his millions off his ventures tied to this global warming scam. What we see here is the same thing we see from Democrats everywhere...a opportunity to control the people, and tax them.
The letter Jajae posted was a letter to the panel letting the UN know that 'hey, we have no ability to contorl climate, no matter how much money you take from people'.
Dr. Lindzen at MIT states:
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12-17-2007, 07:01 PM
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| Policy Wonk  Pragmatist NEIA
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Is the earth really getting hotter? 
Yes. Although local temperatures fluctuate naturally, over the past 50 years the average global temperature has increased at the fastest rate in recorded history. And experts think the trend is accelerating: the 10 hottest years on record have all occurred since 1990. Scientists say that unless we curb global warming emissions, average U.S. temperatures could be 3 to 9 degrees higher by the end of the century.