Honda tops Toyota in realibility

WickedLou9 · 10-17-2007, 10:02 AM

So consumer reports just released thier latest automotive reliability survey...

Honda finally tops Toyota! not by much though

I don't know if this link works

Reliability trends

Our latest survey tracks a decade’s worth of trouble

Over the years, the reliability of Toyota-built vehicles (including Lexus and Scion) has been nothing short of sterling. However, our 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey indicates that the Japanese automaker has slipped a bit. Three models manufactured by Toyota, including a version of the top-selling Camry, now rate below average in our predicted reliability.

By contrast, Ford's domestic makes have made considerable improvements in reliability. Of the Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models in our survey, 93 percent scored average or better in predicted reliability.

Other news from our latest survey:

Overall, Asian models still dominate in reliability, accounting for 34 of the 39 models in the Most reliable new car list. Thirty-one are Japanese and three are South Korean.

Despite Toyota's problems, the automaker still ranks third overall in reliability, behind only Honda and Subaru, with 17 models in the best list. Honda has seven with a smaller model lineup.

Only four domestic models made the Most reliable list: the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Pontiac Vibe, and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 with the V6 engine. U.S. makes, however, account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on the Least reliable list. There are 13 from GM, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford.

European makes account for 17 models on the Least reliable list. This includes six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi.

Phantom · 10-17-2007, 10:12 AM

Honda has a pretty narrow range as well.

It looks like Toyota is making a shitty vehicle or two that is dragging them down. Any idea which vehicle(s) that might be?

Publius · 10-17-2007, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Phantom

Honda has a pretty narrow range as well.

It looks like Toyota is making a shitty vehicle or two that is dragging them down. Any idea which vehicle(s) that might be?

probably the Prius.

Publius · 10-17-2007, 10:23 AM

I've had my Civic for just shy of 3 years, put about 42,000 miles on it, and haven't had a single problem. I love it.

7960 · 10-17-2007, 10:32 AM

looking at the scale I wonder why Acura isn't on top. Sure it's 48 v 44, but the 44 range is way smaller so they're producing their quality more consistently.

land rover looks like it fell off a cliff

Scrum · 10-17-2007, 10:36 AM

Look at the range on Pontiac.

Scrum · 10-17-2007, 10:37 AM

I had an 88 Accord that ran forever. I should have bought another Honda instead of the Impala.

Publius · 10-17-2007, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Look at the range on Pontiac.

Pontiac's newest cars on the line (Solstice, G5, G6) seem to be doing better, but they're other units (Grand Prix, Vibe, Torrent, etc.) are dragging the brand way down.

I would happily own a G5, G6, Solstice, or the new G8 coming out next year.

Publius · 10-17-2007, 10:48 AM

Im surprised by Mercedes being so far negative

Roonie · 10-17-2007, 11:15 AM

I have followed consumer reporting on the cars almost every year. Honda and Toyota are always at the top. Land Rover is always at the bottom and getting worse. BMW has moved up the ladder some as well as Ford. The mechanical nightmare and voted most likely car to have problems has always been the 7 series BMW. Ford has always been close to Chevy so good that they moved up some. Also Mercedes have always been lower as they have so many electronics that can go bad and they are also using new technology which takes a couple years to work out the bugs. Subaru also moved up the ladder some.

Publius · 10-17-2007, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

looking at the scale I wonder why Acura isn't on top. Sure it's 48 v 44, but the 44 range is way smaller so they're producing their quality more consistently.

land rover looks like it fell off a cliff

Acura is the "luxury" subsidiary of Honda, so it probably has to do with the fact that Acura has a much more narrow buyer range, and thus a smaller pool of owners to survey. I have a feeling that the two are pretty close to exactly the same in terms of reliability of individual vehicles, much as the graph suggests.

Linzyhop · 10-17-2007, 11:26 AM

my subaru is right up there.

WickedLou9 · 10-17-2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Phantom

Honda has a pretty narrow range as well.

It looks like Toyota is making a shitty vehicle or two that is dragging them down. Any idea which vehicle(s) that might be?

They said it was the new V-6 camry because it has transmission problems.

yeah When I see a wide range like that it screams Quality Control Issue.

In a company like Honda where quality is strictly controlled you see a very narrow range. A wide range like that screams of systematic production issues. Some factories might be good some might be bad. They aren't doing a good job controlling things. Maybe that's the price they paid to surpass GM as the worlds biggest car manufacturer.

DENTS IN TOYOTA'S ARMOR

Toyota's reliability record in our survey would make it the envy of almost any other automaker. But Toyota seems to have fallen victim to bug-ridden redesigns. Two models with below-average reliability are the Camry with the V6 engine and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup. Both were redesigned for 2007. The third is the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan. Because we don't recommend models with below-average reliability, those three no longer make Consumer Reports' recommended list (see What's up, what's down).

However, the four-cylinder version of the Camry and the hybrid versions of the Camry and GS all scored above average and will continue to be recommended.

What went wrong? The survey identified problems with the six-speed automatic transmission as the major concern with the Camry V6. Subscribers reported problems with the four-wheel-drive system in the Tundra. Owners of the AWD Lexus GS informed us of problems with power accessories and the audio system.

Because of those findings, we will no longer recommend new or redesigned Toyotas without reliability data on a specific design. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding reliability, we may resume recommending its new models based on history.

JaJae · 10-17-2007, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Publius

Acura is the "luxury" subsidiary of Honda, so it probably has to do with the fact that Acura has a much more narrow buyer range, and thus a smaller pool of owners to survey. I have a feeling that the two are pretty close to exactly the same in terms of reliability of individual vehicles, much as the graph suggests.

The scale ranks by the mean of all cars, not the range. Statistically if you were to purchase a Honda it has a better chance of being more reliable than an Acura even with the extended deviation.

Publius · 10-17-2007, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by JaJae

The scale ranks by the mean of all cars, not the range. Statistically if you were to purchase a Honda it has a better chance of being more reliable than an Acura even with the extended deviation.

I know. My point is that with a smaller pool of buyers and thus smaller quantity of owners (unless the survey made efforts to survey an equal number of owners from each brand, obviously, but I dont think it did), those on the lower end of the spectrum have more weight and thus impact the mean for that particular brand more.

Or am I misunderstanding the reporting methodology?

WickedLou9 · 10-17-2007, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

I know. My point is that with a smaller pool of buyers and thus smaller quantity of owners (unless the survey made efforts to survey an equal number of owners from each brand, obviously, but I dont think it did), those on the lower end of the spectrum have more weight and thus impact the mean for that particular brand more.

Or am I misunderstanding the reporting methodology?

I think you have it right. They survey the owners.. I am not sure if it's only readers of the magazine and subscribers to ther website. I know that I got a survey from them for my car and my wifes car.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-17-2007, 12:24 PM

no surprise there, I've said for a few years now that honda > toyota

Ardentfrost · 10-17-2007, 01:45 PM

That graph is called a box plot. It represents the mean and upper and lower quartile of the statistic. This method is used to take out the exceptions (like, if one car lasts for 100 years, it's not really fair to add it into the range because it's unrealistic).

What it looks like to me, especially when you think about volume and the various models of car, Toyota probably has a model of car that is not very good, which is causing that very long tail toward the bottom, but notice how the expected (or mean) remains on the upper end. So, MOST models of Toyota are obviously good, and if this was the only statistic they cared about, it would certainly behoove them to drop the unreliable model. However, since they're not dropping that model, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if the troubled model was the Prius, because there is a lot of money in hybrids right now. However, Honda lacks the same drastic change (although there is an elongated tail, so the Insight might very well be the culprit that is bringing them down as well).

I think if I were the statistician in charge of this study, I would do one of two things: 1, rate Honda and Toyota the same as due to variability, their different for now is statistically insignificant, or 2 break those two companies down by model and get rid of the lower quantile causing the decrease, warn people against those models, and compare the rest of the sample against each other.

That's just my interpretation from the box plot though

7960 · 10-17-2007, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Acura is the "luxury" subsidiary of Honda, so it probably has to do with the fact that Acura has a much more narrow buyer range, and thus a smaller pool of owners to survey. I have a feeling that the two are pretty close to exactly the same in terms of reliability of individual vehicles, much as the graph suggests.

I know they're the same car. Just like I have a maxima and a friend has an infiniti i35...it's a maxima with lipstick.

My point was the range is much more narrow so it should be ranked higher. It was just an opinion, but if you're looking for consistency in quality the graph says you'd do better going with acura.

Ardentfrost · 10-17-2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I know they're the same car. I have a maxima and a friend has an infiniti i35...it's a maxima with lipstick.

My point was the range is much more narrow so it should be ranked higher. It was just an opinion, but if you're looking for consistency in quality the graph says you'd do better going with acura.

The range in this sort of graph doesn't mean less reliability, especially since you have to consider volume and number of models. Acura only has a few models compared to Honday which has quite a few more. All of that has to be taken into account when interpreting these graphs by statisticians.