Edwards people. Do you really like this plan?

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Making education free takes the meaning out of it.

I may entirely agree with some underlying problems with giving everyone free education. But this statement I am hearing over and over makes no sense. If someone said tomorrow here is enough money to go to stanford, it doesn't mean I will be accepted or that I will graduate.

Did you guys all go to school in here's my 75k where's my diploma land?

[motivez]

I don't agree that it takes the meaning out of it, in fact I think that assertion is completely ridiculous. You still have to earn your degree.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't agree that it takes the meaning out of it, in fact I think that assertion is completely ridiculous. You still have to earn your degree.

A monkey in a coma could earn a degree at a state institution. What I'm saying is if education is free, people won't take it as seriously. That's not a good thing for our society.

[motivez]

So if you don't go to a top tier private university now, you didn't have to work for your degree? It was just handed to you?

I'm sure many of the people who've gone to some of the great state schools around the country resent that

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by JaJae

A monkey in a coma could earn a degree at a state institution.

absolut bullshit depending on the degree

[7960]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I don't get the argument,

The de facto minimum for most jobs is at least a HS diploma. Make college "free" and very soon it'll be the de facto minimum to apply for a job. That means more people get processed through college to fill demand, that means more people in the market with a degree, that means the degree has less value to the person who earned it.

everyone would have had one 50 years ago, when college cost next to nothing.

50 years ago my parents bought a house for $10,000 but my father was earning $6,000/year. Sure college cost next to nothing but 50 years ago people earned next to nothing, too, so it was still a significant investment.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

absolute bullshit

really?

depending on the degree

Oh ok.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by JaJae

What I'm saying is if education is free, people won't take it as seriously. That's not a good thing for our society.

Isn't that what a GPA, school rankings, degree types are for?

1) A high GPA implies a person took their education seriously and they will get higher paying jobs than those with same degree but lower GPA

2) A top tier school always has graduates who make more than lower tier schools. A person getting a free education does not necessarily mean they go to Harvard, they would go to the lower tier school so the people who worked hard to get to higher tier have no worries from them out of college. And is a person who gets free education does go to a top tier school, it means they earned the right by working hard in HS.

3) I doubt very highly a structural engineer who gets free college because he/she can't afford it will not take it seriously. Many degrees are very difficult, you can't just skate your way through.


And if your issue is beyond college - that many people who graduate with a free degree will flood the labor market and drive down wages, how come that didn't happen when most became a HS graduate when that was the standard 60 or 70 years ago? It is going to happen no matter what, but that doesn't mean we ignore the people who can help themselves by getting an education now, our society will not go down the tubes because of it - we will adjust and get better as we always have and these people will be better because of it.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

And if your issue is beyond college - that many people who graduate with a free degree will flood the labor market and drive down wages, how come that didn't happen when most became a HS graduate when that was the standard 60 or 70 years ago?

If it were true it would be hard to measure considering we were in the Great Depression...

In any event a high school diploma does not assign specialist degrees. If you think the teaching market is flooded and underpaid now, imagine how many people will go into "Education" and become teaching certified if college is free. Less people will be willing to do the menial labor (HS diploma stuff) and will flood our economy in other ways.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by JaJae

If it were true it would be hard to measure considering we were in the Great Depression...

In any event a high school diploma does not assign specialist degrees. If you think the teaching market is flooded and underpaid now, imagine how many people will go into "Education" and become teaching certified if college is free. Less people will be willing to do the menial labor (HS diploma stuff) and will flood our economy in other ways.

You and 7960 are making wild claims - back it up

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Less people will be willing to do the menial labor (HS diploma stuff) and will flood our economy in other ways.

Isn't that what everyone keeps saying about immigrants - they do the jobs we don't?

If you think the teaching market is flooded and underpaid now, imagine how many people will go into "Education" and become teaching certified if college is free.

It will only force up the quality of teaching with more competition and people will come to see the market flooded and move onto other fields

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

You and 7960 are making wild claims - back it up

I can't with anything but anecdotal evidence, so of course it will be ignored.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Isn't that what everyone keeps saying about immigrants - they do the jobs we don't?



It will only force up the quality of teaching with more competition and people will come to see the market flooded and move onto other fields

The flooded market has not forced up the quality of teaching. It has forced down the quality of teaching because the pay is not good enough for quality teachers. Flooding the market even further will once again decrease the pay and thus harm our education system even further.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The flooded market has not forced up the quality of teaching. It has forced down the quality of teaching because the pay is not good enough for quality teachers. Flooding the market even further will once again decrease the pay and thus harm our education system even further.

I left teaching because the pay was awful .

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

I can't with anything but anecdotal evidence, so of course it will be ignored.

It's one thing to try to make logical connections, its quite another to make claims that make very slippery and vague connections to that logic..such connections should be substantiated or else they should be ignored cause all it is noise in all honesty

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

It's one thing to try to make logical connections,......

But it is a logical connection.

Like i said above, a HS diploma is pretty much standard for getting a decent job. IMO if college is "free" for everyone then it'll quickly end up that a degree will be standard for getting a decent job.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by 7960

But it is a logical connection.

Like i said above, a HS diploma is pretty much standard for getting a decent job. IMO if college is "free" for everyone then it'll quickly end up that a degree will be standard for getting a decent job.

Do you have any evidence of this from other countries that offer free education, or is it just an opinion?

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by 7960

The de facto minimum for most jobs is at least a HS diploma. Make college "free" and very soon it'll be the de facto minimum to apply for a job. That means more people get processed through college to fill demand, that means more people in the market with a degree, that means the degree has less value to the person who earned it.




50 years ago my parents bought a house for $10,000 but my father was earning $6,000/year. Sure college cost next to nothing but 50 years ago people earned next to nothing, too, so it was still a significant investment.

To the first paragraph I agree in a basic sense. That your degree would be worth less individually when comparing yourself to others if more had that degree. But what kind of arguement is that? You are essentially saying that college degrees artificially inflate the value of the worker because some can't afford the degree. How is that better for business? If I were looking to employ someone for a technical job surely it would be better for my business if I could sort through 6 BS's and 2 masters than 5 BS. The only people it could hurt are people who already have degrees but are afraid of competition or who don't want to continue their education. And if an increase in bachelors will increase the amount of masters, then definitely US businesses would be better of from the research background employees would be getting.

As to the second point, speaking in terms of inflation and wages, college education still cost very very little compared to what it does now.

I don't really like the idea of free college for everyone. Mainly because it would put Universities under too much pressure from the public. When you provide funding on merit, via research and scholarships, it's the student's fault if they fuck up. Giving free college education could in time shift the blame of failing students to the Universities and some good schools could become day cares for lazy kids with ambitious parents.

Will it hurt the reputation of degrees, not from most schools, no I don't think so. Tuition money does give schools integrity. But it would be a waste of money for any system not merit based.

/My 2 cents.

[nbiggershaft]

Out of curiosity, what colleges and what degrees are the people have the people in this thread attended/ are getting?