A Headline Worth Reading

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Maybe you haven't noticed but democracy is failing in many countries and hard liners are taking over ......

you want to list these "many countries" where democracy is failing?

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by 7960

you want to list these "many countries" where democracy is failing?

I think his reference to democracy failing is more along the lines of people are getting elected that do not like us, or they are hard liners, or support 'terrorism' being used against us. We have seen it with Hamas being elected, there are a variety of other places, and we might actually see one here real soon with Pakistan.

Personally I wouldn't call it a failure in democracy, but failures related to pushing an imperialist/geopolitical agenda. There are consequences to our actions and we realize these when a country of people has such hatred they elect leaders who willfully and purposely want to strike out against our country. This can include acts of terrorism against us, providing help to insurgency (syria and/or Iran), or just general anti-american rhetoric.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

you want to list these "many countries" where democracy is failing?

Way to take a snippet of my post out of context

I said the long term consequences of OUR actions - it hasn't been working

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Way to take a snippet of my post out of context

I said the long term consequences of OUR actions - it hasn't been working

it's not taken out of context...you said "democracy is failing in many countries and hard liners are taking over" and I'm asking for a list of these "many countries"

got one? I'd like to read up on which countries this is happening in.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

got one? I'd like to read up on which countries this is happening in.

Palestine
Russia
Peru
Malaysia
Just about any country in Latin America that went through rapid democratization like Venezuela
Iraq
Indonesia
etc
etc

These countries are now are at one time in the very recent past democratic and are in increasingly bad shape, curbing civil liberties and becoming more authoritarian.

These countries all took a step back, their own people elected and re-elected hardliners in some case and in others the country is worse than when they were ruled by dictatorships...Many of these examples were given by Fareed Zakaria in his great book "The Future of Freedom", happy reading

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Palestine

......palestine is and/or was a democracy?

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

......palestine is and/or was a democracy?

They had free elections but we didn't like the result - Hamas gaining so much power - but ok, that's off the list, the rest are sound...have fun reading

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

They had free elections .....

That in itself defines democracy?

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

That in itself defines democracy?

Like I said, they are off the list - I conceded that point - now concede yours and start reading

...I'm asking for a list of these "many countries"

got one? I'd like to read up on which countries this is happening in

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by 7960

That in itself defines democracy?

Isn't representation through elections the definition of a democracy?

What else is required?

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Scrum

Isn't representation through elections the definition of a democracy?

What else is required?

Friendly to America, duh

[7960]

Originally Posted by Scrum

Isn't representation through elections the definition of a democracy?

What else is required?

Underpinning democracy is also "freedom." I see a lot of countries on the list that had "elections" and even some that had legit elections, but where is freedom on that list of countries?

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

Underpinning democracy is also "freedom." I see a lot of countries on the list that had "elections" and even some that had legit elections, but where is freedom on that list of countries?

No, democracies underpinning isn't freedom, by its definition 51% can oppress 49%. So its only when there is protection of liberty, then you can argue degrees of freedom...start reading

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

No, democracies underpinning isn't freedom, by its definition 51% can oppress 49%. So its only when there is protection of liberty, then you can argue degrees of freedom...start reading

Democracy - Form of government, where a constitution guarantees basic personal and political rights, fair and free elections, and independent courts of law.
A Short Definition of Democracy

In short, democracy is the institutionalization of freedom
What Is Democracy? - Defining Democracy

...democracy as currently understood and practised is competitive elections. Competitive elections ...require freedom of speech (especially in political affairs), freedom of the press, and some degree of rule of law.
Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The modern definition of democracy includes freedom. You can't have "free/open elections" if the people aren't free to speak about, learn about and vote for whomever they want.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

The modern definition of democracy includes freedom. You can't have "free/open elections" if the people aren't free to speak about, learn about and vote for whomever they want.

Once again you missed the point, the people in these countries WERE free to elect who they wanted and to speak about, learn about and vote for whomever they wanted..most voted in hardliners that later curbed these rights

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Once again you missed the point,

Once again I did not miss the point. Most of those countries had "elections" but also had severe restrictions on the media and/or few if any personal freedoms.

When you're listing palestine and iraq as "free democracies" there's something wrong. Sure there were elections in iraq ......sure the voters could learn about everyone on the ballot........sure voters were free to vote for whomever they wanted.........too bad there was only one name on the ballot.

There were 11,445,638 eligible voters - and every one of them voted for the president, according to Izzat Ibrahim, Vice-Chairman of Iraq's Revolutionary Command Council. Saddam Hussein - who has ruled Iraq since 1979 - was the only candidate.

In London, the Foreign Office painted a stark picture of the "choice" facing the Iraqi voters:

"You can't have free elections when the electorate goes to the polls in the knowledge that they have only one candidate, that candidate routinely murders and tortures opponents of the regime and the penalty for slandering that sole candidate is to have one's tongue cut out."

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Saddam 'wins 100% of vote'

[7960]

You know full well I am not talking about Saddam..its fruitless to argue with you, I'm done

this is bullshit.......you say iraq is a democracy and then when I ask you about it you get defensive and then when i finally figure "fuck it, he's a tool and doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about" and post up why I say iraq is NOT a democracy you take a cheap shot in the rep section and run home crying.

I don't give a shit about rep points. What really pisses me off is that you're saying iraq is a democracy and then running like a little bitch when questioned about it.

Iraq wasn't a democracy before saddam and it wasn't during saddam. Saddam came to power by forcing the iraqi president to retire. He was involved in coups, he killed opponents, and he murdered anyone who spoke against him.

Before Saddam, al-Bakr came to power by overthrowing a monarchy.

The president before him (Arif) came to power through a coup.



............exactly where is the democracy in iraq?

And next time you want to act like a bitch do it to someone else and maybe you won't end up looking like an asshole.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by 7960

Democracy - Form of government, where a constitution guarantees basic personal and political rights, fair and free elections, and independent courts of law.
A Short Definition of Democracy

In short, democracy is the institutionalization of freedom
What Is Democracy? - Defining Democracy

...democracy as currently understood and practised is competitive elections. Competitive elections ...require freedom of speech (especially in political affairs), freedom of the press, and some degree of rule of law.
Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The modern definition of democracy includes freedom. You can't have "free/open elections" if the people aren't free to speak about, learn about and vote for whomever they want.

The first two are completely bogus b/c it's the definition of democracy as the gov't defines it, not history or mankind.

The last doesn't say what you're trying to say. Competitive elections, freedom of the press, and some degree of law? All those things are relative things. Many nations we see as democratic have government controlled media outlets. Or the farce of competitive elections.

Democracy means nothing more than "rule by the people." ("cracy" being a government, and "demo" being people, or, more classically, plebians) If you have a system in which the people vote you have a democracy. Of course, there are different versions of democracies, and it can be argued that even though people vote in a republic, it's not really a democracy, but all that is semantics.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

If you have a system in which the people vote you have a democracy.

If there's only one person on the ballot it's not a democracy. Iraq isn't/wasn't/never was a democracy.