Who here owns guns?

[Ardentfrost]

Oh yeah, everyone should have a safe, but ESPECIALLY with a kid it's important. It's only dangerous if they can get to it

[WickedLou9]

I duno. I know how I was as a kid. I loved exploring the house and looking around for neat stuff. If there was a safe or something I would have probably eventually found a key or a combination or whatever. I dunno. If I actually felt that I needed one I might do it and get a really good safe.
The rate for burglary where I live is about half the national average.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Oh yeah, everyone should have a safe, but ESPECIALLY with a kid it's important. It's only dangerous if they can get to it

You want me to deny my 2 year olds 2nd amendment rights?


Go back to Russia, comrade.

[Roonie]

Originally Posted by Scrum

You want me to deny my 2 year olds 2nd amendment rights?


Go back to Russia, comrade.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Scrum

You want me to deny my 2 year olds 2nd amendment rights?


Go back to Russia, comrade.

[motivez]

I don't own any personally, but people in my family do. I grew up around them and used to shoot cans and whatnot on my aunts ranch quite often

I don't really feel a need to have one now though

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Roonie

They make small safes that can locate right at your bedside that can only read fingerprints or have your own code. Either way a safe is your only option with little ones around. I like to go to the gun range and rent their handguns and do target shooting. I used to spend hours target shooting when I was a kid with my BB gun. We would have contests to see who was the best shooter.

I guess i do have a couple of those... but i never really counted that as a gun.. considering me and the buddies used to shoot them at each other. Wear a set of baggy jeans and have bb gun and shoot bottle rockets at each other. That was fun...and safe.. The rule was no more than 5 pumps and you had to aim below the waist.

Its what real men played before paint ball came around.

[Roonie]

My brother and I used to do the same thing. Bottle rockets and BB guns. We made elaborate bottle rocket launchers out of old water pipe with spark deflectors and everything and they were accurate.

[WickedLou9]

It's a wonder any of us survived childhood. My brother and I used to do all sorts of crap that we should never have been doing.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by Grouch

I am a little worried that I did not heat treat one of my receivers good enough.

I've been trying to look heat treating up and I've found plenty of tutorials for the treating but I have not found anything about possibly re-heat treating if it was not done correctly the first time.

Why are you trying to heat treat the receiver? Is hardened steel required for your application?

A good number of tool steels are air hardening to a lesser or greater extent. If you are using a non air hardening steel, and you need a hardened reciever, you may be a little late in the process :-)

To harden steel, you need to bring it beyond critical temp (carbon in solution) and then rapidly cool. For most simple steels (Iron+carbon), that temperature is between 1430-1500^F. If you do not have the equipment to measure temperature accurately, heat till dark red and then hold to a magnet. If the steel is attracted to the magnet, you are not hot enough. Heat until non-magnetic for five minutes for a good 'soak' and then smoothly plunge into quench oil (gear oil mixed with tranny fluid works in a pinch).

The problems you will face are as follows:

Identify the steel - alloys have different hardening temps and rates. Some are air hardening.

Stress - Hardening steel caused dimensional changes such as warping. Hardened parts need to be machined AFTER hardening.

Decarboration/oxidation - As steel heats to critical, carbon migrates to the surface and forms scale. Scale needs to be machined off. The outer layer of steel now contains less carbon, and is now either mild steel or straight iron that will not harden. This outer layer must be removed. To minimize this, you can enclose the piece in steel foil.



I suggest running a couple clips through it and check your headspace and look for deformations on the face of the block. You may not need hardening.

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Why are you trying to heat treat the receiver? Is hardened steel required for your application?

A good number of tool steels are air hardening to a lesser or greater extent. If you are using a non air hardening steel, and you need a hardened reciever, you may be a little late in the process :-)

To harden steel, you need to bring it beyond critical temp (carbon in solution) and then rapidly cool. For most simple steels (Iron+carbon), that temperature is between 1430-1500^F. If you do not have the equipment to measure temperature accurately, heat till dark red and then hold to a magnet. If the steel is attracted to the magnet, you are not hot enough. Heat until non-magnetic for five minutes for a good 'soak' and then smoothly plunge into quench oil (gear oil mixed with tranny fluid works in a pinch).

The problems you will face are as follows:

Identify the steel - alloys have different hardening temps and rates. Some are air hardening.

Stress - Hardening steel caused dimensional changes such as warping. Hardened parts need to be machined AFTER hardening.

Decarboration/oxidation - As steel heats to critical, carbon migrates to the surface and forms scale. Scale needs to be machined off. The outer layer of steel now contains less carbon, and is now either mild steel or straight iron that will not harden. This outer layer must be removed. To minimize this, you can enclose the piece in steel foil.

I suggest running a couple clips through it and check your headspace and look for deformations on the face of the block. You may not need hardening.

All AK receiver flats are sold in a softened state otherwise it would be much harder to do the bending of it and the trimming for the rails, trunion holes, FCG holes. ect.

Hence the reason they need to be heat treated.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Roonie

They make small safes that can locate right at your bedside that can only read fingerprints or have your own code. Either way a safe is your only option with little ones around. I like to go to the gun range and rent their handguns and do target shooting. I used to spend hours target shooting when I was a kid with my BB gun. We would have contests to see who was the best shooter.

Yup. Ours is hidden on top of a closet out of reach. Bullets are separately hidden. I'm pretty sure that even if my kids found the clip and loaded the pistol they couldn't pull the slide back. BUT, they are getting older and I am looking at safes now.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It's a wonder any of us survived childhood. My brother and I used to do all sorts of crap that we should never have been doing.

Tell me about it. We used to make cannons with tin soup cans. We would duct tape 5 or 6 together, squirt lighter fluid in it and launch tennis balls. Then we found if we doused the balls in lighter fluid and dropped it in already on fire, not only did it act just like a mortar, but the balls sometimes stayed on fire as they came out. To the joy of us all obviously.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Tell me about it. We used to make cannons with tin soup cans. We would duct tape 5 or 6 together, squirt lighter fluid in it and launch tennis balls. Then we found if we doused the balls in lighter fluid and dropped it in already on fire, not only did it act just like a mortar, but the balls sometimes stayed on fire as they came out. To the joy of us all obviously.

Good lord.
Yeah we used to take model rocket engines, grind them up and make minature pipe bombs out of them. We used some small pieces of brass tubing that we bought in a hobby stores.

[RockPusher]

Grouch,

If you harden a machined part, you will get dimensional changes and a decarb layer of soft steel that needs to be removed to expose the hard metal below. It will be about 1/100 - 1/64 of an inch thick. Scale is very hard, so I suppose you could leave it on the surface to give the steel an artificial hardness.

Stack kiln brick into a box that is big enough for the part (leave a vent hole for airflow). Put a piece of charcoal in the box to reduce the oxygen present in the box (this decreases decarboration and scale). Heat the inside of the brick box with a propane torch. Avoid direct flame contact to the part - The idea is to heat indirectly so that uneven heating... i.e. warping... does not occur. Keep a magnet handy to check for critical temperature.

If you are using a high chrome or molybdenum alloy 4xxx or 5xxx steel like 5160, you will need to get the part up to about 1650, and you will need to quench TWICE. 1650 looks bright red-orange in a dark room.

VERY IMPORTANT - After you harden the part, place it in your oven at 425^F for one hour. Let the part cool and repeat.

A tool steel will harden to a depth of about 1/4". It will have a hardness of between 59-63 Rockwell. This is VERY brittle and will chip or snap under stress. Cycling in the oven is the tempering process. It relieves the stress by backing the hardness off a few points.

After two one hour cycles at about 425^, you should be between 57-61 Rockwells and tough enough for harsh applications.

Remember to let the part soak up heat for a few minutes before quenching.

DO NOT SWISH THE PART IN THE QUENCHENT OR YOU WILL WARP.

_____

This same setup can be used for forging.

[Grouch]

Thanks for the help but that is the least effecient way to heat treat a stamped AK flat. This is the common method.

http://www.akparts.com/akinfo10.html

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by Grouch

Thanks for the help but that is the least effecient way to heat treat a stamped AK flat. This is the common method.

http://www.akparts.com/akinfo10.html

Let me know how that works out for ya Slick.


The method I described will harden steel.

This article is written by somebody who CLEARLY does not know how to harden steel.

Heating with a torch causes warps and uneven grain growth (poor grain structure = failure prone.

For a 4xxx steel, you must heat to 1650 to quench, not red - bright red. There is a huge difference. You cannot tell in a lighted work area.

Also, if you harden a non air hardening steel, and then heat it red hot and then air cool it, you have just SOFTENED it.




Following the instructions in the article that you linkded will result in a slightly warped piece of steel with uneven grain structure, a DEAD soft steel surface covered in rough scale.... but NOT a hardened piece.

If you dont mind ruining a piece of steel, try it out. Next take a file and test the surface by seeing if the file bites less in the 'hardened' zone.

Just be prepared for an 'I told you so' by somebody who understands the metallurgy of steel.

[Grouch]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Let me know how that works out for ya Slick.

Originally Posted by RockPusher

The method I described will harden steel.

This article is written by somebody who CLEARLY does not know how to harden steel.

Heating with a torch causes warps and uneven grain growth (poor grain structure = failure prone.

For a 4xxx steel, you must heat to 1650 to quench, not red - bright red. There is a huge difference. You cannot tell in a lighted work area.

Also, if you harden a non air hardening steel, and then heat it red hot and then air cool it, you have just SOFTENED it.

Following the instructions in the article that you linkded will result in a slightly warped piece of steel with uneven grain structure, a DEAD soft steel surface covered in rough scale.... but NOT a hardened piece.

If you dont mind ruining a piece of steel, try it out. Next take a file and test the surface by seeing if the file bites less in the 'hardened' zone.

Just be prepared for an 'I told you so' by somebody who understands the metallurgy of steel.

It’s an AK 47 bub, do you even know what that is? Or the scope on which it needs to be heat treated, even after I’ve linked it to you? You’re going to be a lot of fun, I can already tell.

This is how every stamped AK flat is treated. Countless numbers of them.

You CLEARLY don’t know anything about the worlds most prolific and reliable assault rifle. If you did then you would know that the worst that will happen is my FCG mounts egg out the holes, and I’m out $30 and a days time. Which is what I’m hoping to avoid.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Good lord.
Yeah we used to take model rocket engines, grind them up and make minature pipe bombs out of them. We used some small pieces of brass tubing that we bought in a hobby stores.

Jesus. That's a lot worse than shooting flaming tennis balls! I was huge into model rockets and I never even thought about getting the fuel out and making bombs.

[Observer]

I don't own any, but I have a motto that I composed that I haven't lived up to yet.

"I'd rather have a gun and never need it than not have one then have a need for one."

If I ever decide to acquire one, I will take lessons on how to safely use it, then get a permit to carry. No warnings on my car in the form of bumper stickers like "Have gun, Will use", either. If I ever have to use it, it will be a total surprise to whoever deserves it.