Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 I've never understood several aspects of conservative and liberal arguments. Thorgrim and Motivez for example are constantly voicing opinion against the bush administration and their way of fighting terror. They dont want the government prying into their business via wiretaps, internet monitoring etc. Which is fine ...
09-01-2006, 04:01 PM
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| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist Greensboro, NC 
| Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 Those situations are hardly comparable 
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09-01-2006, 04:02 PM
| #42 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by hsmith More like it'll fail for the same reason Communism failed. The perfect world that strict Libertarianism requires doesn't exist.. and neither does the informed population that would be required for their philosophy to be reasonably successful.
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09-01-2006, 04:05 PM
| #43 | ||||
| Junkie libertarian
| Originally Posted by motivez Econonomic theory of the free market doesn't dictate perfect infomration is needed
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09-01-2006, 04:08 PM
| #44 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by hsmith More like we should be judged by how we treat our weakest members, and we should work to make society a better place for humans to live instead of just a better place for businesses to profit. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, but they don't go hand in hand.
I know Libertarian's don't care if we have a bunch of people out on the street unable to eat, children not getting an education because their parents shitty job can't afford to pay for private school, and having an even larger segment of the population dying of disease because they can't afford private health care or the trip to their independent pharmacy that's handing out potentially unsafe drugs because they lack the expertise to actually do the needed testing/research that should be required, ..but I think most reasonable people do.  | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:08 PM
| #45 | ||||
| helluo librorum The Lab Moderator  Humanist Chicago Suburbs
| Originally Posted by hsmith You should talk to Ardent about that.
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09-01-2006, 04:09 PM
| #46 | ||||
| helluo librorum The Lab Moderator Humanist Chicago Suburbs
| Originally Posted by motivez
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09-01-2006, 04:10 PM
| #47 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by hsmith It requires the market to be a benevolent force that'll help out the people who need it, and that market doesn't exist.
It also requires a population to be interested enough to inform themselves on all these different subjects, and that population doesn't exist. The free market is a great solution to many problems, but too many people get caught in the churn of the spokes to have it be the sole thing that controls society without having some things supplemented to help fix some of the flaws that exist. | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:11 PM
| #48 | ||||
| Hamiltonian > Jeffersonian  Libertarian Party DFW
| Originally Posted by motivez
Your characterization of Libertarians and libertarianism is completely trollish. I would expect better out of you. | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:13 PM
| #49 | ||||
| For those about to rock...  libertarian Atlanta, GA
| Yes, we should be judged on how we treat our weakest members... but FORCING people to treat the poor a certain way isn't a correct judge of character or society. I'm all about donating to good charities and shit, but I'm not about being forced to donate to the government, who is the worst charity in the world. | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:13 PM
| #50 | ||||
| helluo librorum The Lab Moderator Humanist Chicago Suburbs
| Originally Posted by Publius What aspect of the free market prevents that then?
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09-01-2006, 04:14 PM
| #51 | ||||
| Administrator  libertarian Oklahoma
| Originally Posted by motivez You use this line all thet ime and it doesn't hold water. You dont help yoru weakest members by making them dependant upon the rest of society for their financial well being. What you do is destroy their sense of self and responsibility. I'm all for helping the down and out with getting back on their feet. But that doesn't include having more children that you can't support and living off the system for 5, 7 or 10 years.
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09-01-2006, 04:14 PM
| #52 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| It's the obvious result of a lot of the extreme Libertarian polices that are out there, and I'm not doing it to be trollish, but to show that when you place so much faith in something that has no controls, and being unwilling to supplement a philosophy to help the poor, the 'worse off', that's exactly what you are going to get. It's probably not indicitive of what most of you want, but it's what I see as a result of the extreme faith in the market that exists. | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:14 PM
| #53 | ||||
| For those about to rock... libertarian Atlanta, GA
| Originally Posted by Scrum I advocate free flowing information to make the transition easier, that's all
There are some things that do need a good place for information, as proven by previous policy (back when politicians were economists) | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:15 PM
| #54 | ||||
| helluo librorum The Lab Moderator Humanist Chicago Suburbs
| Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 Who said anything about all that? The system needs a huge overhaul, thats for sure. But it doesn't need to be eliminated.
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09-01-2006, 04:15 PM
| #55 | ||||
| Master Debator Election Moderator  Democrat Omaha, NE
| Originally Posted by Publius I think you consider it trollish because its hating on libertarians. Unfortunately for libertarians he is, in a general sense, on the mark. The invisible hand is a wonderful idea, but so is santa claus.
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09-01-2006, 04:15 PM
| #56 | ||||
| Hamiltonian > Jeffersonian Libertarian Party DFW
| Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent Maybe the fact that if there is a segment of society being ignored, there is an opportunity to profit from that segment? In a free market with no barriers to entry, a business man would be able to make a profit by catering to the segments ignored by others.
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09-01-2006, 04:16 PM
| #57 | ||||
| Banned  Conservative Government is another way to say Better Than You
| Originally Posted by lew so why don't liberals love the republicans then?
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09-01-2006, 04:16 PM
| #58 | ||||
| Perpetual Noob Independent
| Libertarianism has nothing to do with post #1 Post #1 has everything to do with asking liberals to put their money where their mouth is. If they want the government to have more money, lead the way and start cutting checks yourself before you ask others to do it. | ||||
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09-01-2006, 04:17 PM
| #59 | ||||
| For those about to rock... libertarian Atlanta, GA
| Originally Posted by DosEquis People shouldn't be allowed to refer to the "invisible hand" anymore... it's such a silly way of looking at free-market shit. The free market is so fucking predictable, it's crazy. It's not some invisible hand guiding it, it's natural occurances, as natural as rain being wet.
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09-01-2006, 04:17 PM
| #60 | ||||
| Administrator libertarian Oklahoma
| Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent Because the impression I get everytime I read that, is that he thinks the republicans think the poor should just be wiped off the map. Thats not the case. Maybe he doesn't htink that but thats the impression I get. The poor will always be among us and we shouldn't let them rot if they're willing to work. All too many aren't willing to work.
I agree the system needs a substantial overhaul. | ||||
