The Fall of Goliath - Page 2

lew · 12-04-2007, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

It's a poll. Sorry, can't put any faith in what it says.

But yet you cite polls when you say that Paul has no chance.

jimeigh · 12-04-2007, 04:24 PM

i like to compare Hillary to Goliath, not because i think she's a big contender, but because i think it's fun to think of her as an over-sized, uncircumcised, walking atrocity of a man.

AVengeance · 12-05-2007, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Well it's finally happened. Hillary has essentially been defeated by the GOP. Democrats have the advantage this election over the Republicans. But, Hillary does not. If the elections were held today Hillary would lose to every one of the top FIVE Republican candidates.

Zogby International

This could be the begining of the end for Hillary. America doesn't want a Republican candidate, but they also don't want Hillary. If the Democrats continue to frontrun her they could end up throwing away another election. This report is a few days old now, but when if it gets national play in the media it could have devastating effects on the Clinton campaign.

At this point in time she can't win on a the national level. She's a huge gamble. I have a feeling a lot of her supporters only support her because of name recognition and because they think she can beat the Republicans. But that's simply not true anymore.

On the flip-side Obama leads ALL of the top five Republican candidates by a larger margin than Hillary loses. It seems the Rock Star Barack Obama should rationally become the new number one contender. And the Zogby polls show his numbers are already severely gaining on Hillary. When people realize Hillary loses to all Republicans and Obama beats all Republicans I think much of Hillary's support will go down the tubes.

That's right in line with my prediction of an Edwards / Clinton ticket (or my less likely version, Edwards / Obama).

They're getting Hillary out there, and letting the other guys throw mud at her (dems and reps) so that Edwards can quietly move up the pack.

Donkey® · 12-06-2007, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by lew

But yet you cite polls when you say that Paul has no chance.

Yes, because 40% of the vote is somehow equivalent to 4%. Even if one takes this poll at face value, she at least is still in the running...Paul isn't even close.

ballz2wallz · 12-14-2007, 12:13 PM

As of today:

Sen. Hillary Clinton’s campaign is teetering on the brink, no matter what the meaningless national horserace numbers say. The notion that she has a post-Iowa “firewall” in New Hampshire is a fantasy, and she is in danger of losing all four early contests, including Nevada and South Carolina – probably to Sen. Barack Obama, who is now, in momentum terms, the Democratic frontrunner.

With her seemingly desperate attempts to attack Obama about his kindergarten papers to his drug use as a teen, she continues to fall out of the lead of this campaign race.

In my opinion, she's done already.

David Octavius · 12-14-2007, 12:30 PM

Way to early to tell..I remember in 2004 a poll that was all over the media cited that GWB would lose to an "unnamed democrat"

Kerry Tops Bush In CBS Poll, Worries About Economy, Doubts About Iraq Hurt Bush Ratings - CBS News

Registered voters now give a five-point lead to an unnamed Democratic candidate over George W. Bush. By 47 percent to 42 percent registered voters now say they would support a Democrat over the Republican President.

We all know how that turned out

motivez · 12-14-2007, 12:34 PM

She has a strong campaign team that has a ton of experience, and she's had a few bad weeks, but I don't think the closing bell has rung yet.

ballz2wallz · 12-14-2007, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

She has a strong campaign team that has a ton of experience, and she's had a few bad weeks, but I don't think the closing bell has rung yet.

She's been making decisions and 'mistakes' that such experienced campaign teams don't make.

I think it's a sign of her desperation. She's been on top of the campaign by large margins for a long time, and suddenly she's fallen, and she knows it.

This is a blow to her ego for sure, and she's not handling it well. How will she handle presidency if this is how she reacts to a hard campaign? Being President of the United States is no easy task.

motivez · 12-14-2007, 12:52 PM

Yeah, going after a kindergarden paper as proof that he lied about "never thinking about being president" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in presidential politics

Being the front runner for as long as she was isn't easy though, with the amount of intense scrutiny placed on you there will always be bad times.. look at Huckabee, he's been the front runner for a little over a week or so and there are already serious questions about him

I think it's going to come down to excitement about the campaign on primary day though, I don't know anyone who supports Clinton with intensity, but I know quite a few who have intensity about Obama or Edwards, etc..

ballz2wallz · 12-14-2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Being the front runner for as long as she was isn't easy though, with the amount of intense scrutiny placed on you there will always be bad times.. look at Huckabee, he's been the front runner for a little over a week or so and there are already serious questions about him

I think it's going to come down to excitement about the campaign on primary day though, I don't know anyone who supports Clinton with intensity, but I know quite a few who have intensity about Obama or Edwards, etc..

Given the number of scandals she's been involved in, I'm very surprised people are even willing to support her. How can anyone support someone who is completely untrustworthy?

Do even her supporters here on LL trust her or her word?

YouTube Video

motivez · 12-14-2007, 01:00 PM

I don't know that anyone here is actually actively supporting her campaign

I think there are Democrats who'll vote for her if she's the nominee, but I think most people have hitched their wagon to another candidate.

JaJae · 12-17-2007, 02:31 PM

She took a pounding on the Today Show..

YouTube Video

ouch... she starts off all gitty and looking like a schoolgirl as if she's ready to break out her fake laugh to avoid any questions, but she gets grilled hard.

What proven leadership does she have? Everything she's tried in the past were complete disasters based on her leadership... healthcare, chief justice appointment, etc.

motivez · 12-17-2007, 02:50 PM

You think being a leader equals success at every single step?

6SpeedTA95 · 12-17-2007, 02:54 PM

wow

JaJae · 12-17-2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

You think being a leader equals success at every single step?

How about one step? She's a "proven leader" or so she says. When has she had a positive result from her proven leadership?

motivez · 12-17-2007, 02:58 PM

You'll have to ask someone who spends more time paying attention to things she does than me, I'm just curious if you think leadership equates to success since that's how your post come across

JaJae · 12-17-2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

You'll have to ask someone who spends more time paying attention to things she does than me, I'm just curious if you think leadership equates to success since that's how your post come across

Touting off "proven leadership" when she hasn't released the documents that document how horribly her healthcare failed is a quite ballzy. She has no major accomplishments. The value of a "proven" leader is their ability to use leadership to get results. She has no outstanding results. She has nothing that separates her from Obama other than a laundry list of failures, mostly due to her poor leadership and uncompromising personality.

Throughout this campaign whenever the going gets tough she starts pulling the feminist card or giving out a hysterical fake cackle. That's not leadership.

motivez · 12-17-2007, 03:02 PM

I think we're all well aware of your opinion about her, but that still doesn't really address my question

JaJae · 12-17-2007, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I think we're all well aware of your opinion about her, but that still doesn't really address my question

The value of a "proven" leader is their ability to use leadership to get results.

Anyone can be a leader. But to be a "proven" leader you need to have some form of proof that you've done a good job leading. She has none. Results would be the best way to show her leadership, her behavior would be another. Pulling the feminist card and cackling when she's put in a tough spot shows she doesn't have that going for her either. She has the power of being Bill Clinton's wife. That's all and that is not leadership.

People who have worked with her in the past on her healthcare plan have said it failed because of her poor leadership and uncompromising abilities. That would be the biggest example of her trying to lead and it turned out in a disaster both in the results category and in her leadership abilities.

David Octavius · 12-17-2007, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Anyone can be a leader. But to be a "proven" leader you need to have some form of proof that you've done a good job leading. She has none. Results would be the best way to show her leadership, her behavior would be another. Pulling the feminist card and cackling when she's put in a tough spot shows she doesn't have that going for her either. She has the power of being Bill Clinton's wife. That's all and that is not leadership.

People who have worked with her in the past on her healthcare plan have said it failed because of her poor leadership and uncompromising abilities. That would be the biggest example of her trying to lead and it turned out in a disaster both in the results category and in her leadership abilities.

"Cackling"? Damn homie you don't like her at all huh?

Good leaders have failed many times in their life - their good because they learned from them and became better, the great ones also learn from others mistakes. Faulting her as a bad leader for something that happened 10 years ago is unfair, what has she done since then in addition to it? If you feel like she didn't learn from it and that it lead to more bad leadership then fine but don't focus on just one thing - every great leader failed at least once.

PS - I am not saying she is a great leader - I actually voted for the Republican (Rick Lazio) for Senator in 2000, didn't want her in