al Qaeda video 'inviting' Americans to convert or die

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Do you fell better now? For future reference your scriptures hold about as much weight with me as Bush's war on terror. And I have no absolutely no faith in his war.

while they may not mean anything to you, they certainly mean something to the christians that read them, and it should certainly be considered when bashing 'christians'. it's important for you know what christians really are/believe if you're going to criticize them.

[cleverest]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Do you fell better now? For future reference your scriptures hold about as much weight with me as Bush's war on terror. And I have no absolutely no faith in his war.

Your words mean less to me then Bush's words mean to you.

Anyways, if you are going to try bashing something decently, you need to educate yourself on what you are bashing, to prevent it from sounding like ignorant, unrelated and emotive babbling,

You're welcome BTW.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by cleverest

Your words mean less to me then Bush's words mean to you.

Anyways, if you are going to try bashing something decently, you need to educate yourself on what you are bashing, to prevent it from sounding like ignorant, unrelated and emotive babbling,

You're welcome BTW.

This is an unacceptable post on this forum. Please read the rules sticky. Thank you and welcome to the forum.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

while they may not mean anything to you, they certainly mean something to the christians that read them, and it should certainly be considered when bashing 'christians'. it's important for you know what christians really are/believe if you're going to criticize them.

He directed his post to me. I replied to simply let him know that he need not waste his time or effort quoting scripture to me. Had he replied to any other post I would not have said a word

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

it's important for you know what christians really are/believe if you're going to criticize them.

I know exactly what christians believe, I was born into a family full of them. Trust me I know all about quoting scripture.

I in no way bashed him or any other christians, although I did hit the President pretty good..

Need to get the vote count upped for that religion forum.

[cleverest]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

There is no doubt that man has perversed what Christ actually taught. Taking a tid bit of scripture, and basing a belief system is reatrded if you ask me.

Thankfully, it's a bit more complex then that.

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

But, although this is not what Christ taught, we can only go with what people are intrepreting it at now.

Not true, we can reject such false teachings....and assign it to a hyprocite, not the teachings of Christ....anyone who has no use for the words and teachings of Christ, is not a christian in the most scripturally stripped down definition possible. They are decievers or decieved themself. Christ's words are clear on many things that even Christians ignore or out-right defy. Scripture teaches this will happen of course, it's all part of a bigger plan.

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

And it's twisted, I'll give you that. But, the only evidence of religion, is the people who practice it.

Christ said that we would know Him and his followers "by their fruit"...not their "claims"... in other words how does their faith change and motivate them? (spiritually, emotionally, mentally, internally, I'm not talking about miracles and physical wonders as such)

Does it make them support the war on iraq, killing, and hating enemies, or does it transform them to have the "mind of Christ" and to truly LOVE their enemies instead? that's a rare, rare thing to see, but I have seen it...

That is the only evidence I need.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

not everyone practices it the way you see it.

Um...I know that...

Everyone practices it differently. And the only proof of a religion, is people practicing it. So, if people practice a religion, where they believe in certain scriptures to hold more weight than others, and that they practice there is only one way to heaven, I know that religion exists because someone practices it.



So, where are you going with your point?

[cleverest]

Originally Posted by JaJae

This is an unacceptable post on this forum. Please read the rules sticky. Thank you and welcome to the forum.

I wasn't bashing anyone. It was merely an observation and recommendation that to attack something you don't understand is ignorant. It's not name calling, sorry if you got that impression. I retract the statement then.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Um...I know that...

Everyone practices it differently. And the only proof of a religion, is people practicing it. So, if people practice a religion, where they believe in certain scriptures to hold more weight than others, and that they practice there is only one way to heaven, I know that religion exists because someone practices it.



So, where are you going with your point?

it would be foolish to base your general hatred for christians on the few that have pissed you off

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

it would be foolish to base your general hatred for christians on the few that have pissed you off

I don't have a "hatred" Ballz. I don't agree with them. That's all. And I don't want their beliefs pushed onto me or my kids. That doesn't mean that I hate them.

I don't need Christ to tell me to love my enemies. I already do.

[cleverest]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Um...I know that...

Everyone practices it differently. And the only proof of a religion, is people practicing it. So, if people practice a religion, where they believe in certain scriptures to hold more weight than others, and that they practice there is only one way to heaven, I know that religion exists because someone practices it.



So, where are you going with your point?

Just a thought....

Maybe you are looking at too big of buildings for your religious proofs? Christ (verbally) attacked the largest religion of His day, and scripture teaches that "God does not dwell in buildings made with hands"... in direct contradiction to all those fancy churches you see on the side of the road that believe every Sun God is there floating around MORE then anywhere else.....

Maybe you should look instead where scripture teaches the very temple of God IS located.....it's not over in the middle east or on the corner of smith ave.....I think if you do that, you might see things a bit differently....you seem to be a sharp person in the little posts I've seen from you so far (having just joined this site)

I believe you still have an open heart.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by cleverest

Just a thought....

Maybe you are looking at too big of buildings for your religious proofs? Christ (verbally) attacked the largest religion of His day, and scripture teaches that "God does not dwell in buildings made with hands"... in direct contradiction to all those fancy churches you see on the side of the road that believe every Sun God is there floating around MORE then anywhere else.....

Maybe you should look instead where scripture teaches the very temple of God IS located.....it's not over in the middle east or on the corner of smith ave.....I think if you do that, you might see things a bit differently....you seem to be a sharp person in the little posts I've seen from you so far (having just joined this site)

I believe you still have an open heart.

What on earth are we talking about anymore?

My open heart? My hatred of Christians?

This is not about me, and what I believe, and never has been.

This is about A faction of fundamentalist muslims who are offering us conversion before they kill us. I don't even recognize this thread anymore.

People twist scripture from the Koran, and the Bible and it stems off into it's own religion. I know this, because there are HUNDREDS AND HUNDRED of different sects of Christianity, all of them having their certain focus on a certain perspective of religion.

So, what exactly is the arguement here? That not all Christians are good? Well of course not. That not all Christians are bad? I have never made a blanket statement like that.

So let's worry less about my heart, and let's concentrate this discussion on the people who are in the news....

[cleverest]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

What on earth are we talking about anymore?

My reply was merely to your statement of: "And the only proof of a religion, is people practicing it." (which was in reply to BALLZ post defending that not all christians follow the general teachings of popular religion and should not be judged as thus.)

The point is that a person can follow a faith, even if it has been extremely twisted. Those twisted teachings that people "practice" only prove that many people are twisted themself...it doesn't prove the entire foundation itself to be false.

Just felt I needed to make that clear since you seem to assign 'popular teachings' as the end all of PROOF to reject or accept a system of belief as you seem to have done with chrsitianity.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by cleverest

My reply was merely to your statement of: "And the only proof of a religion, is people practicing it." (which was in reply to BALLZ post defending that not all christians follow the general teachings of popular religion and should not be judged as thus.)

The point is that a person can follow a faith, even if it has been extremely twisted. Those twisted teachings that people "practice" only prove that many people are twisted themself...it doesn't prove the entire foundation itself to be false.

Just felt I needed to make that clear since you seem to assign 'popular teachings' as the end all of PROOF to reject or accept a system of belief as you seem to have done with chrsitianity.

OK, what that statment meant, was that we know there is religion, because people practice it. If people didn't "PRACTICE" a religion, the religion would be dead, and we might never know it existed. If I say that I am a Mormon, and I practice Mormonism, then you will know this by my practicing it, and exisiting within the laws of mormonism. The same is true for anyone who says they belong to a religion. It might not fit standard definitions, it might not be "correct" in the popular sense, but that doesn't make it any less of a religion.

Popular teachings mean nothing for something to be a religion. As an Anthro teacher once told me "ONe man's cult, is another man's religion." It's all very subjective.

Christianity is wide in scope of who follows what. The truth is, is that many sects of Christianity focus on select scriptures, which their founders insist translate the whole Bible into a meaning, and they use that two lines of scripture to justify their beliefs and actions.

What Jesus actually said, or believed, or taught, is hardly relevant, because all these religions think that they have it right, as far as what he said, believed, or taught. What the actual message is, has been so far manipulated by people, that the context in which something was said, is up to interpretation.

If I don't make sense, then take an Orgins of religions class....

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

There is no doubt that man has perversed what Christ actually taught.

Sure there is, because man has no idea wtf Christ actually talked because the only account of it is a book that was edited by all sorts of committees and popes with an agenda, not to mention translated 11tybillion times.

[cleverest]

ya, it's a big post, but I believe in you all.....

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Matthew 28:19

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: John 15:16;

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: II Timothy 4:5;

“Jesus says, ‘You teach them to obey everything I have commanded you [the apostles].’ Well, what’s the last thing he commanded them? The last thing he commanded them was to go and make disciples, so one of the things that we teach every person that we baptize is to go and make disciples. So, every single Christian, every single disciple has been given the charge by Jesus to go and make disciples, who can make disciples, who can make disciples, who can make disciples...”

Kip McKean

Evangelism is nothing to be ashamed of, it’s not religious, and no, it’s not optional.

Frank & Erica Kim

The real heart of the matter:


"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it."
BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Matthew 11:12 ;

Ok this goes through a few subjects but I feel they are related enough to be considered.

First of all, you take scripture like every denomination of christianity does without considering the entire Bible first before deciding "what it teaches"...no denomination considers this either, why do you think there is thousands of different sects of christianity? to them, doing so would be "out of context" (even though in the next breath they claim God wrote the whole book.... ) when we do apply this principle however, we learn by studying, that it comes down to this tenant:

1Pe 3:15 .............. [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you ........ [how? with a sword and a mean face? Nope, but] with meekness and fear:

Doesn't sound like a forceful person to me.

We are to answer. answers require questions, which we should wait for. Contrary to that quote you gave, not all christians are commanded to evangelize, in fact we are told that without God, we can do nothing....it's His call.... but nobody receives a call to kill, force, and shove their beliefs down other people's throats and anyone who does is simply defying their supposed source of faith in the first place and embracing a man made religion. They have no use for the words of Christ. Love thy enemy simply cannot be twisted to mean "kill them and burn their body". It's impossible. It's a lie. It's painfully obvious.

It is unfortunate that men and women have used various powerful social systems (religion, politics, etc...) to justify their own dark deeds and take advantage of others under a "flag"...but Christianity, when stripped of it's historical/social/religious church-building theology, simply as taught by the very figurehead of the belief....a figurehead who granted, is more often denied then embraced....Jesus Christ...it is revealed to be a belief of love (even to an enemy) and system of peace with all men.

How rare it is to find that though. Christ said "many are called, 'few' are chosen." MANY in the greek means "the multitude"...the majority...

As far as someone converting another person goes, a conversation to Christ requires a CHOICE, and yet I've come to the point where I understand this choice is inspired and motivated by God first, or that person continues to live however he lives. We do not love something because it is demanded or forced on us....We cannot love God because we fear some pagan christian hell awaits us if we don't, what sort of love it that?!....A real choice cannot be forced, ceorced or otherwise taken by force, or it can never be something that is accepted from the heart. It is at best a smooth lie for the victim and a hollow victory for the tyrant at best... All choices are motivited and therefore have a CAUSE. Science agrees with the law of causality so this is a reasonable conclusion in many ways.

If you cannot seperate a claim of truth from the concept of an objective truth to weigh those claims against, then we can erase the words: liar, hypocrite, false, deceived, deception, from the dictionary, because all claims are equally *true.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Sure there is, because man has no idea wtf Christ actually talked because the only account of it is a book that was edited by all sorts of committees and popes with an agenda, not to mention translated 11tybillion times.

Exactly. So to say that one follows the "teachings of Christ as forth in the Bible", which Bible? What language is it in? And what about gospels and books that have been convienently "Left Out".

I ask my mother this, and she tells me she knows she is reading the word of God, because God wouldn't let his word be corrupted.... OK whatever. It's a circular arguement...

[imind]

neither muslims nor christians are supposed to convert throught force. we have seen the biblical scripture supporting this, and the quran explicitly says that allah forbids it...

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

2:256, There is no compulsion in religion

"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject"

and allah curses those (hypocrites) who claim to believe, yet don't...

9:66 Make no excuse. Ye have disbelieved after your (confession of) belief. If We forgive a party of you, a party of you We shall punish because they have been guilty.

9:67 The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another. They enjoin the wrong, and they forbid the right, and they withhold their hands (from spending for the cause of Allah). They forget Allah, so He hath forgotten them. Lo! the hypocrites, they are the transgressors.

9:68 Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.

so why would you forcefully convert someone if allah is simply going to curse them, and quranic scripture says not to?

both islam and christianity have sects that interpret scripture differently (incorrectly?) than mainstream.

[Diamond Cross]

Okay, where are they going to get all those virgins from? The world's human population is six billion people. So let's say all six billion people convert.

6 times 72 is 412, so that means 412 bilion virgins.

[RMNIXON]

Back to the video:


The question is not whether they can actually carry out such crazy notions. The question is how many innocent people, including some less radical Muslims, will die in the process?

I do take this rather seriously. A certain PC political view seems to be far to dismissive about it.