Everyone Up Now Watch Meet The Press Now Or In 30 Minutes

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Casey won more votes in his last election than any politician for any office in Pennsylvania history, he's popular in PA

As a politician...he was praised in PA bipartisanly for his jobs before Santorum's negative ad blitz

Sure, he's not a 12 year Senator, but I'd rather Casey even as a pro-life Democrat because he comes across as more genuine, and he certainly is, he didn't make outrageous claims or lies yet Santorum gave his lame WMD argument which everyone knows is pure political hacksmenship

What exactly would a slightly left-center indepedent voter (PA's indepedents on the edges of Philly) see in one of Santorum's positions that he would go "oh I agree with Rick over Casey on this"

I really didn't catch any, hence why I don't think its nearly as bad as you think, I'll watch the left, center and right blogs...see what people think, but I really doubt they'll have your opinion

The people agree with Casey on what? He didn't say anything. He didn't give a plan on anything. I only saw the last half hour, but I didn't see Casey describe ONE thing. He just sat up there and tried to get through the questions without being shown a hypocrit by Santorum or the host.

And I think you're dead wrong when you say his base didn't think he was gonna win. Why would they put him out on national television to be embarrassed like that?

All he did was run off the usual talking points from the Dem camp. Even at the end he got in his sound bite to say that Santorum agrees with Bush. All he cared about was running off the anybody but Bush campaign. His entire premise was to link Santorum to Bush and gave no definitive answer to anything.

And he did lie and was caught in a lie. And he was being hypocritical and even the host who is supposed to stay nuetral was calling him out on it by the time the interview was ending.

We must have been seeing two clearly different interviews.

I agree with you that Santorum's views don't line up with PA. But, Casey embarrassed himself in that debate and at least Santorum showed that he's willing to work for PA and be up front about who he is and what his plans are. Casey is just laying low, keeping his mouth shut (as he's always done and will continue to do if/when he gets elected) and letting the people of PA vote out the R from their polls. And quite honestly Casey would have been better off not doing this debate. It was a failure in just about every step of the word.

He came off as being a lazy politician, a hypocritical idiot who lied during the debate, someone who wouldn't answer questions and showed he had no real plan for PA's future. The only thing he has going for him is that he has a D next to his name. And unfortunately that's probably all it's gonna come down to for the upcoming election.

[Thorgrim]

From the extreme-right RedState.com

"Rick Santorum "debated" Bobby Casey junior on NBC's Meet the Press, but it was really Russert vs. Santorum, with Casey along for decoration, and Santorum won."

Nothing about "Santorum raping Casey"

Redstate | Conservative News and Community

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The people agree with Casey on what? He didn't say anything. He didn't give a plan on anything. I only saw the last half hour, but I didn't see Casey describe ONE thing. He just sat up there and tried to get through the questions without being shown a hypocrit by Santorum or the host.

And I think you're dead wrong when you say his base didn't think he was gonna win. Why would they put him out on national television to be embarrassed like that?

All he did was run off the usual talking points from the Dem camp. Even at the end he got in his sound bite to say that Santorum agrees with Bush. All he cared about was running off the anybody but Bush campaign. His entire premise was to link Santorum to Bush and gave no definitive answer to anything.

And he did lie and was caught in a lie. And he was being hypocritical and even the host who is supposed to stay nuetral was calling him out on it by the time the interview was ending.

We must have been seeing two clearly different interviews.

I agree with you that Santorum's views don't line up with PA. But, Casey embarrassed himself in that debate and at least Santorum showed that he's willing to work for PA and be up front about who he is and what his plans are. Casey is just laying low, keeping his mouth shut (as he's always done and will continue to do if/when he gets elected) and letting the people of PA vote out the R from their polls. And quite honestly Casey would have been better off not doing this debate. It was a failure in just about every step of the word.

He came off as being a lazy politician, a hypocritical idiot who lied during the debate, someone who wouldn't answer questions and showed he had no real plan for PA's future. The only thing he has going for him is that he has a D next to his name. And unfortunately that's probably all it's gonna come down to for the upcoming election.

You'd probably say the same things about Kerry in 2004, Bush had a solid plan, Kerry was a flip flopper

PA gave their votes to Kerry

Santorum got tied to Bush, didn't make any death blows, and Santorum came off as way too combatitive for the 3rd ranking Senator

We saw the same debate, it's just I don't think you know PA voters

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

We saw the same debate, it's just I don't think you know PA voters

I already said PA voters are obviously going to side with Casey since Santorum's views are different.

That's not the issue I'm discussing. I'm saying in this debate Casey got destroyed... hands down. The ability of Casey to show up and deliver his ground and points was completely non-existent.

If this were a debate from a debate club or such Casey would have failed miserably. He had absolutely nothing and was caught lying and being hypocritical. He had absolutely nothing going for him. He embarrassed himself this morning on national television. He proved he is lacking in the skills needed to be a productive politician. On the flipside, Santorum proved the exact opposite.

His entire platform is "vote for me because this guy has sided with Bush." That's it. And that's a joke.

[Thorgrim]

I concede Casey lost the debate, but as I pointed out, even Red State isn't jumping for joy, which they would have been if it was as bad as you make it out to be...they weren't in a debate club they were on MTP debating who should be the next Senator to represent PA, and in that contest, its not Santorum 10 Casey 0

Why?

1) Santorum got so on the attack at several points he seemed to be like the raving man in the room next to the reasonable man, and it wasn't in response to Casey, he was combative with Russert, so he doesn't look like an aggressive opponent but just a man who is angry.

2) On the Iran point, Santorum has been hard-core for Iranian sanctions and actions, and totally dodged Casey's charge that he return all the money from the VP who is against Iranian sactions...it'd be like Tancredo taking money from a pro-illegal immigration group, he completely struck out when confronted on that

3) Santorum tied himself to Bush, despite his efforts not to in the past, and that is horrible for a President who had a 28% approval in PA! When Casey made the line of "98% you agreed with Bush...you don't need a senator a machine could do that" Santorum had nothing to say back on that, total wiff again

4) Santorum's big "hits" on Casey were on things that PA voters are disgusted with...they disapprove of Iraq, certainly do not want to attack Iran, are one of the most defensive states on Social Security, the only thing that goes PA voters cared about that Santorum brought up was the pay hike, and Casey didn't vote on it or approve it, he simply stood on the sidelines perhaps too long before saying it was a bad idea, Rendell signed the frickin thing and he's coasting. No one is going to blame Casey a bill he had nothing to do with...

5) Santorum looked like a total idiot defending his kids getting PA resident money while they live in VA, and even worse when he trotted out the WMD line, you had Russert looking at him in disbelief (as I believe the vast majority of the audience was) when you had Bush saying Santorum was wrong on Bush's War

6) Santorum is already disliked, Casey is already liked, and he is way ahead. The last thing Casey needs is to try and go after Santorum, he played calm and safe and in that way he couldn't really "lose" the way Quayle did by trying to tie himself to Kennedy's experience.

7) you talk about people not seeing him have a fan, or not a good politician etc...PA voters have elected him to two big state offices in record numbers, and he only lost the gubernatorial primary because he was too conservative, he's not a good campaigner but PA voters have always respected him, you don't but you're not from PA

[Thorgrim]

Also, here is the "left-wing" recap:

Santorum called George Bush a "terrific president," admitted to sleeping in Pennsylvania just one month a year, reiterated his support for privatizing Social Security, praised Bush's handling of Iraq and insisted there were WMD in Iraq even though the White House has acknowledged there weren't. Casey laid out a new direction, calling for the Iraqis to take the lead on their own security and detailing specific ways for enhancing the U.S. military. He outlined a plan to balance the budget and spoke about the need for Pennsylvania to have a Senator who will hold George Bush accountable for advancing an ineffective agenda.

^^^ Sure, its overly optomistic, but its not delusional...compare that with RedState, who just said Santorum beat Russert, and again...rape not found

Also, how many people got up early or went online on this beautiful Sunday (in PA) on labor day weekend? No one who is undecided, thats for sure

This is all going to come down to "what soundbytes can we get from this?" and I believe Casey got some great soundbytes from Santorum to use against him, Casey was calm or "lazy" enough that Santorum has nothing to take from this unless Philly pundits praise him...which they won't because of above spin by Dems

[Thorgrim]

Non-partisan PennLive says Casey won the debate
PennLive.com

I told you, you just don't get PA voters

[JaJae]

Here's the first peice of spin on crooksandliars. I'm on dial-up currently and can't watch the video, but they have a quote:

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Santorum, another social issue. The Federal Drug Administration has said that Plan B, the morning-after pill, can be sold over the counter to Americans 18 and older. Many in the right-to-life community have called that pill an abortifacient. Are you in favor of the FDA decision to sell the morning-after pill?

SANTORUM: He says the science is clear and it is clear. In fact, it is an abortifacient in certain circumstances. If the, if the egg has been fertilized and, and the, and the pill is taken, it does cause an abortion. It’s inconsistent with his previous position. It’s a classic attempt of him, how in a general election, to try and middle and, and, and violate his principles. And I think his father would be very upset if, if he were alive today and, and heard him be supportive of something like this.

I watched this debate. This is not how it went at all.

His response was this:

SEN. SANTORUM: No, I’m not. I, I agree that it is an abortifacient, and that, that it’s dangerous to give a dose of hormones equivalent to one third of a whole series of birth control pills to, to someone without any kind of doctor supervision. I think it could be dangerous and I think, obviously, if you’re giving it out over the counter to, to 18-year-olds it’s going to get to younger people, and I think it could be very dangerous, can lead to serious problems. And plus, I do believe that it, that it causes abortions—in some cases.

The rest was given LATER in response to Casey giving a misguided answer:

MR. RUSSERT: The morning-after pill. You in favor of it selling over the counter?

MR. CASEY: Yes, Tim. We, we disagree. I think what emergency contraception is, according to the science, is, is basically that. It is contraception, and I support it, and it’s a difference of opinion.

MR. RUSSERT: But you do believe life begins at conception?

MR. CASEY: I do.

MR. RUSSERT: And in fact, if this was fertilized, would you call it contraception or abortion?

MR. CASEY: Tim, I think the science is clear on this. I think it is contraception, and I support it. I think we’ve got to make it widely available, and I think that’s one of the ways, I think, that we reach common ground on the very tough issue of abortion: to reduce the number not just of unwanted pregnancies, but I think emergency contraception can reduce the number of abortions. That’s what we should emphasize.

SEN. SANTORUM: He says the science is clear and it is clear. In fact, it is an abortifacient in certain circumstances. If the, if the egg has been fertilized and, and the, and the pill is taken, it does cause an abortion. It’s inconsistent with his previous position. It’s a classic attempt of him, how in a general election, to try and middle and, and, and violate his principles. And I think his father would be very upset if, if he were alive today and, and heard him be supportive of something like this.

MR. CASEY: (Unintelligible).

Well I knew they'd do something to try to spin this...

[JaJae]

Can someone please explain to me what abortion is if it's not aborting life? I'm curious here cause Casey's answer wasn't definitive enough.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here's the first peice of spin on crooksandliars. I'm on dial-up currently and can't watch the video, but they have a quote:



I watched this debate. This is not how it went at all.

His response was this:


The rest was given LATER in response to Casey giving a misguided answer:

Well I knew they'd do something to try to spin this...

I love those spin sites, especially when a pee on such as yourself or me own the shit out of them

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Can someone please explain to me what abortion is if it's not aborting life? I'm curious here cause Casey's answer wasn't definitive enough.

Preventing the embryo from forming (Plan B) is preventive, like birth control pills, infact they are the same thing. Removing the embryo through chemicals or surgery is abortion

Casey believes Plan B will reduce abortions

BTW Cutting my hair is aborting life

[Thorgrim]

Crooks and Liars gives the two most important lines, from the same argument in a recap and then provides links to the full transcript and a video which is completely unedited as their main piece

Crooksandliars is a media site, not a wikipedia entry, they can recap it anyway they want to conserve space, and then link to full transcripts, the full video, and the entire exchange (which is 100% accurate)...what the hell is your problem?

Talk about trying to twist something to attempt to smear a website

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Crooks and Liars gives the two most important lines, from the same argument in a recap and then provides links to the full transcript and a video which is completely unedited as their main piece

Crooksandliars is a media site, not a wikipedia entry, they can recap it anyway they want to conserve space, and then link to full transcripts, the full video, and the entire exchange (which is 100% accurate)...what the hell is your problem?

Talk about trying to twist something to attempt to smear a website

Of course they can edit it to "conserve space" anyway they want. That doesn't mean a viewer can't call the out on their "choice" of editing

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Of course they can edit it to "conserve space" anyway they want. That doesn't mean a viewer can't call the out on their "choice" of editing

Their "choice" includes a link to the full transcript right next to it...they were trying to show what Atrios was saying without writing tons of paragraphs on the main page, something they almost never do

Again, people go their for the media, they downloaded the video clip and got EXACTLY what ja wrote out, the unedited, full version, and its also noteworthy to point out that the quotes were full and not edited

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Their "choice" includes a link to the full transcript right next to it...they were trying to show what Atrios was saying without writing tons of paragraphs on the main page, something they almost never do

Again, people go their for the media, they downloaded the video clip and got EXACTLY what ja wrote out, the unedited, full version, and its also noteworthy to point out that the quotes were full and not edited

And they know 95% of people wont click taht because the majority of folks that visit their site are liberals anyways so they just try to reinforce their views.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

And they know 95% of people wont click taht because the majority of folks that visit their site are liberals anyways so they just try to reinforce their views.

Haha, C&L is a media site, if anything people will glance over the quote and download the video, and ignore the transcript perhaps

But miss downloading the video? Why the hell does anyone come to C&L besides to download videos? I haven't met a liberal yet who goes there for their "opinion" because they almost always cite some other blogger like Kos or Atrios

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Haha, C&L is a media site, if anything people will glance over the quote and download the video, and ignore the transcript perhaps

But miss downloading the video? Why the hell does anyone come to C&L besides to download videos? I haven't met a liberal yet who goes there for their "opinion" because they almost always cite some other blogger like Kos or Atrios

Ok

[JaJae]

I'm on their site now. I'm seeing about 1 out of 3 posts have video links...