House passes bill to ban waterboarding

[motivez]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

9/11 was preventable had airport security did their job and followed procedure or if the intelligence agencies actually trusted each other and shared information about known terrorists...it didn't take torture to prevent 9-11, it took competence - and that is what we are missing right now.

Yep, great point.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The Department of Justice is stepping in right now. And we know who destroyed the tapes. And we're pretty sure we already know why. There is oversight here. Pelosi et al was briefed on this from the get-go.

But a lot of pointing fingers and second guessing conspiracy crap will still play out for a few more weeks........

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

Yep, great point.

And if we had not gutted our intelligence service in the 90's and made them afraid to talk to "Bad Guys" because it might look bad on the pages of the New York Times after it leaks, which it always does these days. Might have helped a bit? But the Satelites still work.............

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

This is the kind of statement that scares me to come out of anyones mouth. What can't you justify if you accept an argument like this? The stuff tyranny is made of.

How can you say my view is tyrannical? Do you believe citizens of a nation shouldn't consider how laws and regulations apply to their own lives and should only apply them to some assumed collective world view? One could argue "that's the stuff tyranny is made of."

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

And if we had not gutted our intelligence service in the 90's and made them afraid to talk to "Bad Guys" because it might look bad on the pages of the New York Times after it leaks, which it always does these days. Might have helped a bit? But the Satelites still work.............

First, the NYTimes did not invent "leaks", thats been going on since the founding of the nation - Jefferson himself leaked news to local papers about Hamilton in an effort to discredit him and the new Federalist party (and Hamilton did the same). So leaks come with the territory and they know that.

Two, the blunders of our intelligent services had nothing to do with them being gutted - on the contrary - it because they were bloated they did not effectively communicate between each other, something that cost us as the CIA new one thing, the INS knew another and the FBI knew something totally different and none put the pieces together.

Finally, some of the blow back we are enduring now is a result of actions by our agencies in the 70s and 80s, the Afghans against the Soviets, the Iran-Iraq war and overthrowing the Shai - and this is when they were far bigger, far from the "gutting" as you call it in the 90s.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by JaJae

How can you say my view is tyrannical? Do you believe citizens of a nation shouldn't consider how laws and regulations apply to their own lives and should only apply them to some assumed collective world view? One could argue "that's the stuff tyranny is made of."

Yes, when people decide the application of laws to individual concerns and, "what if it was your mother" and not to larger principles it's wrong. It's exactly how you get lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture.

The law says we need to give someone a good trial, but what if it was your daughter who was raped and killed? Well then you would want them strung up the nearest tree. You don't round up asian americans and throw them in prison because it is wrong and against common law, but what if you saw those damn Japs sneak attack us and maybe someone you loved died or you are worried about someone you love dieing.

This is no different, politicians play on our fears to get the power commit atrocities. All they need is a few people saying, 'well what if it was your mother?' and they are free to kill, torture and imprison whomever they want.

The obvious response to this is, yeah but that isn't the case here. All they are doing is a lesser form of torture on very bad men. If you really think that kind of excuse is acceptable I lump you with the "if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" people. Preserving rights and principles of the this country is more important than someone's mom or daughter

[motivez]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Yes, when people decide the application of laws to individual concerns and, "what if it was your mother" and not to larger principles it's wrong. It's exactly how you get lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture.

The law says we need to give someone a good trial, but what if it was your daughter who was raped and killed? Well then you would want them strung up the nearest tree. You don't round up asian americans and throw them in prison because it is wrong and against common law, but what if you saw those damn Japs sneak attack us and maybe someone you loved died or you are worried about someone you love dieing.

This is no different, politicians play on our fears to get the power commit atrocities. All they need is a few people saying, 'well what if it was your mother?' and they are free to kill, torture and imprison whomever they want.

The obvious response to this is, yeah but that isn't the case here. All they are doing is a lesser form of torture on very bad men. If you really think that kind of excuse is acceptable I lump you with the "if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" people. Preserving rights and principles of the this country is more important than someone's mom or daughter

Great post.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Yes, when people decide the application of laws to individual concerns and, "what if it was your mother" and not to larger principles it's wrong. It's exactly how you get lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture.

Believing we shouldn't apply the laws of the land to ourselves before accepting them and only looking to the greater good is exactly how we've always had lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture and everything else you've mentioned. Historically your ideology is exactly what has created those atrocities in the past, not my mentality. In the end two can play this game, and historically.. you lose. What you're saying sounds good on paper, but it's really a lot of hogwash that can go both ways.

The law says we need to give someone a good trial, but what if it was your daughter who was raped and killed? Well then you would want them strung up the nearest tree.

No if it was my daughter I would want them to have a trial and justice to be served. If my daughter was raped and killed I would hope the person would be in jail for the rest of his life and possibly capital punishment enforced. Those also happen to be my political views.

You don't round up asian americans and throw them in prison because it is wrong and against common law, but what if you saw those damn Japs sneak attack us and maybe someone you loved died or you are worried about someone you love dieing.

Are you implying that if a Japanese attacked us I would support some form of detention or Holocaust scenario? Get real here. This is absolutely absurd and has no basis of reality or common sense.

This is no different, politicians play on our fears to get the power commit atrocities. All they need is a few people saying, 'well what if it was your mother?' and they are free to kill, torture and imprison whomever they want.

No they wouldn't be free to do whatever. You're making it sound like what I'm saying is so far fetched, but it happens all the time. Look at the Congress floor everyday they're talking about bringing our soldiers home and taking individual situations of soldiers who won't be home for the holidays.
Look how people apply it to the tax code:
Tax burden
They're personalizing it to prove their point and prove their position. We have Cindy Sheehan paraded around the media telling the story of her dead child. By your logic she is essentially playing on our fears of Iraq which in turn gives our government the power to do whatever nasty thing I may want to imply. Regardless of what perception you have of the world, I believe I am perfectly capable of taking instances on a case by case basis. Just because I may believe something in one instance doesn't mean I'm going to believe something completely different in another instance such as ridiculous accusations of hording up Japanese Americans.

The obvious response to this is, yeah but that isn't the case here. All they are doing is a lesser form of torture on very bad men. If you really think that kind of excuse is acceptable I lump you with the "if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" people. Preserving rights and principles of the this country is more important than someone's mom or daughter

Now you're starting to make some sense, without actually getting to the point. Basically through all this rhetoric and false accusations you're making the case of a slippery slope. Which is a very valid one. However, you can't make assumptions of what I or individuals would think on other issues just because you believe my thought process on this issue would result in a slippery slope. If that were the case I would already be in favor of a ton of other things that I simply am not.

My views on abortion are essentially pro-choice. The reason for is if I were in the position of having a child on the way that I couldn't care for, I would like the option of an abortion if it was found out soon enough. I believe it is a necessary ill our society should endure. However, if you were to ask me what's worse waterboarding a terorrist or partial-birth abortion, or even a late term abortion it surely wouldn't be waterboarding a terrorist for half a minute. If I wanted to I could go ahead and give some absurdly grim scenario of the slippery slope abortion will have on humanity or what the moral justifications of abortion has on our rights, but I'm sure it would sound equally as absurd to you.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Yes, when people decide the application of laws to individual concerns and, "what if it was your mother" and not to larger principles it's wrong. It's exactly how you get lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture.

The law says we need to give someone a good trial, but what if it was your daughter who was raped and killed? Well then you would want them strung up the nearest tree. You don't round up asian americans and throw them in prison because it is wrong and against common law, but what if you saw those damn Japs sneak attack us and maybe someone you loved died or you are worried about someone you love dieing.

This is no different, politicians play on our fears to get the power commit atrocities. All they need is a few people saying, 'well what if it was your mother?' and they are free to kill, torture and imprison whomever they want.

The obvious response to this is, yeah but that isn't the case here. All they are doing is a lesser form of torture on very bad men. If you really think that kind of excuse is acceptable I lump you with the "if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" people. Preserving rights and principles of the this country is more important than someone's mom or daughter

we don't agree on much, but this is a helluva of post

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Yes, when people decide the application of laws to individual concerns and, "what if it was your mother" and not to larger principles it's wrong. It's exactly how you get lynch mobs, genocides, secret prisons, torture.

The law says we need to give someone a good trial, but what if it was your daughter who was raped and killed? Well then you would want them strung up the nearest tree. You don't round up asian americans and throw them in prison because it is wrong and against common law, but what if you saw those damn Japs sneak attack us and maybe someone you loved died or you are worried about someone you love dieing.

This is no different, politicians play on our fears to get the power commit atrocities. All they need is a few people saying, 'well what if it was your mother?' and they are free to kill, torture and imprison whomever they want.

The obvious response to this is, yeah but that isn't the case here. All they are doing is a lesser form of torture on very bad men. If you really think that kind of excuse is acceptable I lump you with the "if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" people. Preserving rights and principles of the this country is more important than someone's mom or daughter

Excellent post. You are spot on, especially with the Japanese internment camps. It's exactly that type of thinking (what if it was YOUR mother in danger?!) that leads to lynch mobs and the like. That type of mentality is about ignoring the civil rights of individuals, ignoring due process, and ignoring the rule of law as it usually applies to civil society. How JaJae can claim it is the opposite is surprising.

Originally Posted by JaJae

How can you say my view is tyrannical? Do you believe citizens of a nation shouldn't consider how laws and regulations apply to their own lives and should only apply them to some assumed collective world view? One could argue "that's the stuff tyranny is made of."

You would characterize existing in a world where people thought torture was both immoral and ineffective as living under tyranny?



You think waterboarding someone is applying "laws and regulations" to them? Really?

Originally Posted by JaJae

No if it was my daughter I would want them to have a trial and justice to be served. If my daughter was raped and killed I would hope the person would be in jail for the rest of his life and possibly capital punishment enforced.

Hmm... so, when you said this:

Originally Posted by JaJae

What if they saved the life of your husband or brother in Iraq? What if those 35 seconds of water being flushed down that son of a bitch's throat saved the life of your child? If it were my kid I'd pour the damn water myself.

...you meant that you'd pour the water down his throat AFTER he had received a trial and had been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a terrorist holding crucial information about an impending attack?

Or, do you expect us to believe that you would hope for a fair trial and proper justice for the man who ALREADY killed your daughter, while in reality you actually approve of torturing without trial a man who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be a terrorist, and who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have information about a terrorist attack that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT kill your daughter?

Sorry, I don't believe that for a second.

It seems to me that your whole argument rests on the possibility that some Jack Bauer scenario would actually come true. People who are pro torture think that they are being tough, but they are really just naive. You think this is like "24" or James Bond, where a terrorist organization has one guy who knows every aspect of the attacks? He would have to be pretty high ranking to know every detail. If a high ranking terrorist was captured, don't you think the terrorist organization would notice it? Don't you think that they would think about changing the details of the attack, since it had been compromised by the capture of a key member? Oh, I forget, you're still in that Jack Bauer fantasy where you've captured this high ranking terrorist before anyone else has noticed, you've used your amazing mind reading abilities to verify that he does indeed know the information that might or might not save your family, and you have to act fast, dammit! The clock is ticking!

The way that we should look at our moral behavior as Americans is not to compare the fact that they are sawing off heads while we are only pretending to drown them, and therefore we are not lowering ourselves to their level. Terrorists should not be setting our moral benchmarks. We are better than that.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

And if we had not gutted our intelligence service in the 90's and made them afraid to talk to "Bad Guys" because it might look bad on the pages of the New York Times after it leaks, which it always does these days. Might have helped a bit? But the Satelites still work.............

I fail to see how that has anything to do with it? Our intelligence agencies knew about these terrorists before 9/11, had they shared information with other agencies (CIA sharing with FBI, INS etc), we would of known where they were and tracked them..it didn't take some Patriot Act or or shredding of our constitution to do it

[thewise1]

I wish it was required that anyone who claims this is not torture have it done to them for an undisclosed amount of time.

[RMNIXON]

A BALLZ Thread Lives!

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

A BALLZ Thread Lives!

Man I took the bait so easily without checking date

[Spideynw]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

A BALLZ Thread Lives!

Why was he banned?

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Spideynw

Why was he banned?

Here is a link to the original Linzy thread that was lost, burried, mislabled, locked, and filed in an unused closet with a sigh that said "Beware of the Leopard!"

http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/...ned-again.html

[Spideynw]

Thank you.