Israeli banning medical aid/antibiotics to Palestinian Children

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Just because the Israel's are more militarily efficient doesn't mean they're just as aggressive. Palestinians consistently bomb Israel from civilian areas. Even after the threat of being retaliated against. They choose to continue firing from these civilian areas because those civilian deaths play into the hands of the liberal media and liberals around the world.

What is Israel to do? Stand there and allow Palestine to continue bombing Israel with no fear of retaliation? If that is the logic perhaps Israel should run out into the sea and wipe themselves off the map.


How exactly does Israel have that ability? You act as if the Palestinians have come to some collective view of wanting to change. Whenever Israel gives an inch, they take a mile and Israelis end up dead.

Better to rule in hell than serve then serve in heaven (and the west bank, despite it's overwhelming cooperation, is nothing close to heaven)

so better phrase would be

better to rule in hell than serve in quasi-hell

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Motz you bring up an excellent point. Israel has control over much of the area and they should be assisting the palestinian government in ways that are constructive for the entire region, not looking to keep the foot on their throat since they can.

I have no doubt Israel is willing to work with the Palestinian government to help the region. But why should Israel help them if the Palestinian does nothing to quell the violence towards Israel? It takes two to make this work.

I don't blame Israel for taking their stand. If the Palestinian government or people want to live well, they need to stop Hamas or other groups attacking Israel.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I guess the Hungarians shouldn't have revolted, after all the Soviets were taking care of them...you can't bite the hand that feeds you

Like Russia was feeding them!

Russia stripped them of everything they had and starved them, like they did every other territory they controlled.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

Israel is as much of an aggressor as the Palestinian people, if you want to compare the number of people each side has killed, the attacks launched by Israel have killed far more than those launched by Palestinian fighters.

That's hardly a fair comparison. That's like saying the US was the agressors in Afghanistan, cause we killed more of the enemy than they have killed of us.

Israel has better military and strategy than just lobbing random rockets everywhere. Of course they killed more, and rightly so. Also consider that they've killed more Hamas (or whatever group is attacking them) than civilians.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

You've also bought into the media narrative that's been framed by massive pro-Israeli media lobbies that always frames Israel as responding to aggression in any action they take, and it's simply not true.

Suggesting the media is pro-Israel is highly debateable.

Israel's policy is just as much to blame, like I said, poverty and extremism are certainly linked, similar to how poverty and crime are here in the US. The difference is in the types of opportunities available here in the US vs in Palestine, and some of the only options many of those young men have is to join up with a militia and fight the oppression they suffer.

Such actions claimed here are a direct result of attacks on Israel. If Israel was not attacked, they would help the area, just as they help the Palestinians within Israel live a great life.

If Israel stopped attacking, plowing over their fields, bulldozing their homes, launching military incursions, controlling roads, borders, water, electricity, etc.. then maybe things could start to change.. but so long as ordinary people continue to suffer through those indignities, there will always be justification to fight back against it.

Again, a result of the attacks. If Israel was not attacked, they would not plow over their fields, they would not attack in return, control their borders, launch military incursions, etc. Everything you've listed would be completely unnecessary by Israel had they no reason to do so.

There was a great documentary on HBO about an Israeli mother who wanted to meet the mother of the girl who blew herself up and killed her daughter.. I suggest watching it, it gives some great insight into the thinking of an ordinary family living in Palestine.. and if people here and in Israel aren't willing to understand someone else's point of view and only want to talk down to them about how they should do this or that and it's so easy, then there really isn't much else to say or do.

The thinking of a Palestinian terrorist...might it be similar to the thinking of every other Muslim terrorist?

You say they should start taking care of their own people. It's amusing and sad to see people over simplify the issue. How are they supposed to do that when Israel controls their destiny in every important way? Israel controls all the land, the borders, the resources, etc?

I'll tell you how...stop the attacks on Israel and work with Israel to build a better place. Until the attacking stops, Israel will not help. And they shouldnl't.

The only solution is a two state solution, with full autonomy granted to the Palestinian people. Until they have that, you can't tell them to stop attacking, because they're living under a military occupation and are fighting against that, and while I certainly don't agree with their methods, any self respecting person on this forum who has ever argued for the defense of America would fight back if some country invaded us and was occupying land we thought was ours.

It doesn't even matter who's right or who's wrong or who started what, unless they are given autonomy, there's never going to be any change.. and only Israel (and the US through it's foreign policy) has the ability to make the decisions that can start the Palestinian people on a path out of poverty and towards positive change.

But here begs the question...why do they need autonomous territory where Israel is? Israel is COMPLETELY surrounded by Muslim countries, yet the Palestinians want Israel's land. Many suggest it was the Palestinians to begin with (was it though?) but that's not the point right now. The point is, the Palestinians don't necessarily want THEIR OWN land, they want Israel's land.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Like Russia was feeding them!

Russia stripped them of everything they had and starved them, like they did every other territory they controlled.

So does Israel, what's your point?

They gave them SOMETHING

Israel gives them SOMETHING

Don't look a horribly disfigured gift horse in the mouth, even if it's former owner is beating you

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Suggesting the media is pro-Israel is highly debateable.

Such actions claimed here are a direct result of attacks on Israel. If Israel was not attacked, they would help the area, just as they help the Palestinians within Israel live a great life.

Again, a result of the attacks. If Israel was not attacked, they would not plow over their fields, they would not attack in return, control their borders, launch military incursions, etc. Everything you've listed would be completely unnecessary by Israel had they no reason to do so.

The thinking of a Palestinian terrorist...might it be similar to the thinking of every other Muslim terrorist?

I'll tell you how...stop the attacks on Israel and work with Israel to build a better place. Until the attacking stops, Israel will not help. And they shouldnl't.

But here begs the question...why do they need autonomous territory where Israel is? Israel is COMPLETELY surrounded by Muslim countries, yet the Palestinians want Israel's land. Many suggest it was the Palestinians to begin with (was it though?) but that's not the point right now. The point is, the Palestinians don't necessarily want THEIR OWN land, they want Israel's land.

All Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank live in Israel...

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

So does Israel, what's your point?

So you're equating Israel to Stalin?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

All Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank live in Israel...

Not really:

Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Strip itself and its population are nominally governed by the Palestinian National Authority, though following the June 2007 battle of Gaza, actual control is in the hands of the de facto government dominated by Hamas. Israel controls the strip's airspace and offshore maritime access.

The Gaza Strip is not currently recognized internationally as part of any sovereign country.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

So you're equating Israel to Stalin?

Stalin was dead in 1956

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Not really:

Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia...anyway...

Gaza and/or the West Bank are not recognized as an indepedent country, they are under the complete control of Israel...the fact that Israel is giving them some vacation time (which they violate whenever they want) means nothing

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Wikipedia...anyway...

Does that make the facts I posted less true?

Gaza and/or the West Bank are not recognized as an indepedent country, they are under the complete control of Israel...

Actually, no.

The Strip itself and its population are nominally governed by the Palestinian National Authority, though following the June 2007 battle of Gaza, actual control is in the hands of the de facto government dominated by Hamas.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Does that make the facts I posted less true?

Actually, no.

"nomimally" this and "de facto" that are subjective judgments not suited to be made from wikipedia, and are the exact same sort of languages used by Soviet satellites who we all had 0 actual independence

Use any modern political science test on whether something is a sovereign state and Gaza/West Bank fail every time

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Use any modern political science test on whether something is a sovereign state and Gaza/West Bank fail every time

I'm pretty sure I also stated that:

The Gaza Strip is not currently recognized internationally as part of any sovereign country.

[Thorgrim]

too bad a negative isn't even a factor, let alone a series of factors that would prove it's sovereign

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

too bad a negative isn't even a factor, let alone a series of factors that would prove it's sovereign

Indeed that is too bad.

It's also too bad that you forego the reality that all I did was show that this statement...

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

All Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank live in Israel...

...is simply wrong

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

But here begs the question...why do they need autonomous territory where Israel is? Israel is COMPLETELY surrounded by Muslim countries, yet the Palestinians want Israel's land. Many suggest it was the Palestinians to begin with (was it though?) but that's not the point right now. The point is, the Palestinians don't necessarily want THEIR OWN land, they want Israel's land.

So is this the argument that Palestinians should just leave and go to some other muslim country, because hell, they are muslim.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

So is this the argument that Palestinians should just leave and go to some other muslim country, because hell, they are muslim.

Nope. It's the argument that becoming a sovereign nation is not their sole intent, but includes taking over Israel (likely lead by their hatred for Israel).