Israeli banning medical aid/antibiotics to Palestinian Children

Thorgrim · 12-15-2007, 01:15 PM

GAZA CITY - The batteries are the size of a button on a man's shirt, small silvery dots that power hearing aids for several hundred Palestinian students taught by the Atfaluna Society for Deaf Children in Gaza City.

Now the batteries, marketed by Radio Shack, are all but used up. The few that are left are losing power, turning voices into unintelligible echoes in the ears of Hala Abu Saif's 20 first-grade students.

The Israeli government is increasingly restricting the import into the Gaza Strip of batteries, anesthesia drugs, antibiotics, tobacco, coffee, gasoline, diesel fuel and other basic items, including chocolate and compressed air to make soft drinks.

...

In the rank, crowded wards of Gaza City's Shifa Hospital, the dispensary is out of 85 essential medicines and close to using up almost 150 others.

Dialysis treatment has been cut back from three to two times a week for even the most critically ill kidney patients, roughly 900 in all. A stack of nearly two dozen blood-cleaning machines gathers dust in a corner, awaiting spare parts that Palestinian doctors say have not been allowed through the border crossings between Gaza and Israel.

"They have turned Gaza into an animal farm -- we only are allowed to get what keeps us alive," he said.

Since June, Naim said, more than three dozen Palestinians seeking treatment for cancer and other critical illnesses at Israel's more advanced hospitals were rejected for passage by Israeli security agencies. The Israeli nonprofit group Physicians for Human Rights estimates the number of rejections "in the tens."

According to Naim, at least 29 patients have died since June, including 12-year-old Tamer al-Yazji, who Palestinian health officials said was denied entry into Israel after developing acute complications from encephalitis. Of the patients who approached Physicians for Human Rights for help, seven died before being granted passage to Israel, according to the organization.

"What do you call sending dozens of Gaza patients to a slow death because they are refused treatment?" Naim said. "That's not a humanitarian crisis. That's a war crime."

Gaza reduced to beggary - Washington Post - MSNBC.com

Why exactly are we so fanatical about helping a regime that is committing war crimes?

We continue to put our strategic interest behind that of Israel, and then wonder why Arabs are still blowing themselves them up in Iraq even during our "surge"

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JaJae · 12-15-2007, 01:19 PM

If Israel is going to occupy the region they should be assisting them. If they don't intend on helping them in this way they shouldn't be there.

Out of curiousity why aren't the Palestinians helping them?

motivez · 12-15-2007, 02:15 PM

Probably because they don't have the means?

There's no economy, they have no autonomy over their land, their resources, electricity, water, their roads, their borders (for trade with neighboring nations) or anything. Israel controls it all and the Palestinians live under a harsh, brutal, and oppressive military occupation.. often being denied the ability to even leave their small village or return to it.. having their homes bulldozed, farms plowed over, and so forth.

I'm sure some of the pro-Israel-at-all cost will try to say I'm making an anti-semitic remark for not thinking their shit smells like roses, but the reality is that Israel is far from perfect, and despite having to put up with a lot of stuff they shouldn't from Palestinian terrorist groups, if anyone in this country was subjected to the same conditions as the Palestinians are made to suffer through by the Israeli occupation, they'd be fighting back any way they could as well.

It doesn't justify the attacking of civilian targets, etc.. but they really have 0 other options because of the vast military superiority Israel has because of our support.

Bush has unfortunately dropped the ball on diplomacy between Palestine and Israel during his Presidency, and things have only gotten worse.

ballz2wallz · 12-15-2007, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Why exactly are we so fanatical about helping a regime that is committing war crimes?

We continue to put our strategic interest behind that of Israel, and then wonder why Arabs are still blowing themselves them up in Iraq even during our "surge"

First of all, you forgot the most important parts of the article, the ones where they explain why they're doing this

Israeli military and political leaders say the restrictions are prompted by near-constant rocket and small-arms attacks and concerns over what uses Palestinian gunmen might have for some materials entering Gaza, particularly fuel and batteries...

...Israeli military officials said last week that 2,000 rockets had been launched from Gaza toward Israel this year, killing two Israelis, wounding many others and instilling fear across the southern region. Since the U.S.-sponsored peace conference in Annapolis, Md., last month, Israeli airstrikes and ground forces have killed 26 Hamas gunmen, the Islamic organization says, as well as at least four Palestinian civilians.

Hamas's military wing is not behind most of the rocket attacks, for which smaller armed groups generally assert responsibility. But Hamas leaders do little to stop the firing of the rockets and rarely, if ever, condemn them.

On Tuesday, Israeli tanks rolled into the central Gaza city of Khan Younis. Six armed Palestinians from the Popular Resistance Committees, a militant splinter group, and the radical Islamic Jihad organization were killed in fighting. Israeli officials labeled the operation "routine."

The answer is simple...they do it for the same reasons we implement similar sanctions on Iran or other rogue countries. If the governments of those countries really cared about their people, they'd do what they could to fix the problem (ie attacks on Israel) but see, they don't do anything, cause they really don't care about their people, and Israel (and the US in our cases) does such things in an attempt to cripple their abilities to make attacks, and also turn the people against their own government.

Why I have to explain this I have no idea.

I love the attempts to villify Israel and our support for them though.

JaJae · 12-15-2007, 03:37 PM

Israeli military and political leaders say the restrictions are prompted by near-constant rocket and small-arms attacks and concerns over what uses Palestinian gunmen might have for some materials entering Gaza, particularly fuel and batteries...

Well that puts things into perspective. If they're going be attacked near-constantly while delivering the items I could understand their reluctance to keep delivering them.

Even still though, if they're going to occupy the region the people living there are their responsibility. I find it hard to fault Israel for their actions though.

Thorgrim · 12-15-2007, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Well that puts things into perspective. If they're going be attacked near-constantly while delivering the items I could understand their reluctance to keep delivering them.

Even still though, if they're going to occupy the region the people living there are their responsibility. I find it hard to fault Israel for their actions though.

Wait, are you telling me you think Israeli's are driving to the middle of gaza city and dropping off these supplies?

1) Any international relief force is there for that kind of thing, probably one of the 1 billion muslims

2) Palestinians themselves, after being heavily screened, can pickup the supplies themselves under military guard if you want to ridiculously sensitive

I would imagine they usually go with 2, they are stopping them because they want to destablize Gaza, and they don't care how many children die, it's a war crime

How many Israeli's have died by rocket attacks exactly, the article didn't say...even though Israel was consulted for the mainstream article...probably like one guy got some shrapnel all month long, while dozens of Palestinians died from medical care

That's not even warfare...and Israel has never said that if the rocket attacks stopped they'd flood israel with aid like they do corrupt Palestinians on the West Bank (not even all West Bank people like what I would call any sort of "good life" and they've basically given in to every Israeli demand imagineable)

JaJae · 12-15-2007, 05:24 PM

I don't really care who is or is not bringing the supplies. If the supplies are warranting attacks, Israel has a say in this. If relief people are bringing it in they can get the supplies elsewhere. Israel isn't the only nation that can assist these people. If the only way to get these supplies to them is for checkpoints and obscene security measures for transportation, perhaps that says something about Palestine and the risks Israel is taking by helping them...

This is the definition of biting the hand that feeds you. Eventually you're not going to be fed. The leaders of Palestine aren't even trying to stop the violence and attacks on Israel. Until that happens they are solely responsible when Israel decides to not assist them.

motivez · 12-15-2007, 05:28 PM

Since Israel controls the borders surrounding the Palestinian territories, and the roads in the Palestinian territories, and prevent the Palestinian people from leaving their little community, entering others, being able to travel, etc.. They certainly are the only nation that can allow others to assist them.

If Israel gave them control over their borders, water, electricity, land, allowed them the ability to trade with their neighbors, and some type of economy could be established, then maybe the levels of poverty would decrease, and so would the risk of new generations turning to terrorism as a way to fight the oppression they suffer every day..

Poverty and radicalism are certainly linked, many of these people turn to it because they're promised money for their family, money their family needs to survive because there's no economy or jobs or anything else like that.. and they have 0 other options.

Of course the Palestinian authority has responsibility for not having enough control over the militias, etc.. however, Israel's policy certainly does nothing to help when it neuters the Palestinian government's ability to provide stability for the normal families living there.

6SpeedTA95 · 12-15-2007, 06:55 PM

I knew there had to be more to this story. Glad to see both sides in the thread now.

Motz you bring up an excellent point. Israel has control over much of the area and they should be assisting the palestinian government in ways that are constructive for the entire region, not looking to keep the foot on their throat since they can.

Thorgrim · 12-15-2007, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

I don't really care who is or is not bringing the supplies. If the supplies are warranting attacks, Israel has a say in this. If relief people are bringing it in they can get the supplies elsewhere. Israel isn't the only nation that can assist these people. If the only way to get these supplies to them is for checkpoints and obscene security measures for transportation, perhaps that says something about Palestine and the risks Israel is taking by helping them...

This is the definition of biting the hand that feeds you. Eventually you're not going to be fed. The leaders of Palestine aren't even trying to stop the violence and attacks on Israel. Until that happens they are solely responsible when Israel decides to not assist them.

I guess the Hungarians shouldn't have revolted, after all the Soviets were taking care of them...you can't bite the hand that feeds you

JaJae · 12-15-2007, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I guess the Hungarians shouldn't have revolted, after all the Soviets were taking care of them...you can't bite the hand that feeds you

They're the ones who have been on the offensive. Israel just wants to not be bombarded with bombs and wants their citizens to not be killed. If they would stop killing Israelis all their problems with Israel would go away. The reason Israel is there occupying in the first place is because they were using the land as a strategic launching pad to attack Israel.

Thorgrim · 12-15-2007, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

They're the ones who have been on the offensive. Israel just wants to not be bombarded with bombs and wants their citizens to not be killed. If they would stop killing Israelis all their problems with Israel would go away. The reason Israel is there occupying in the first place is because they were using the land as a strategic launching pad to attack Israel.

All the Soviets wanted were the Hungarians to stop attacking their people

Also, you're wrong about the consequences part...the West Bank has not struck out at Israel...at all...and they are living in misery under the Israeli occupation...they are part of Israel

JaJae · 12-16-2007, 12:27 PM

A simple Google search returned many, many attacks from the West Bank.

Attacks from Gaza are more prominent though. Like this one where they randomly launched a mortar and hit a 2 year old.
Palestinian rocket wounds 2-year-old - Yahoo! News

JaJae · 12-16-2007, 12:28 PM

Also if they wanted to get supplies in they could...
Egypt finds two Gaza smuggling tunnels - Yahoo! News

EL-ARISH, Egypt (AFP) - Egyptian authorities have discovered two underground tunnels used for smuggling weapons into the Gaza Strip from the Sinai peninsula, a security source told AFP on Sunday.

They're always willing to smuggle in weapons... if they had another priority perhaps this wouldn't be happening.

motivez · 12-16-2007, 12:32 PM

It's a vicious circle, they're fighting for something we'd all fight for if we were dealing with the same conditions, which is the ability to control their destiny without having to live under military oppression, without having to deal with constant raids into their territory, having their children slaughtered, etc.

Israel's policies fan the their desire to fight, and their continued fighting is the reason Israel continues it's policies. Eventually someone is going to have to make a change.

Israel doesn't have to because of our continued support for their brutal occupation, Palestinians wont because they believe in what they're fighting for.

JaJae · 12-16-2007, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

It's a vicious circle, they're fighting for something we'd all fight for if we were dealing with the same conditions, which is the ability to control their destiny without having to live under military oppression, without having to deal with constant raids into their territory, having their children slaughtered, etc.

Israel's policies fan the their desire to fight, and their continued fighting is the reason Israel continues it's policies. Eventually someone is going to have to make a change.

Israel doesn't have to because of our continued support for their brutal occupation, Palestinians wont because they believe in what they're fighting for.

The dealbreaker on this discussion for me is always the same. Everyone always says Israel and Palestine are both at fault. I'm willing to admit Israel has made some mistakes, but overall it is the Palestinians that are the aggressors. If Palestine stopped attacking Israel their problems with Israel would soon all but go away. If Israel stopped retaliating against Palestine nothing would change. And I think most people looking at this situation can recognize that. The only way to stop the fighting over there is for the Palestinians to stop attacking Israel and to start taking care of their own people. Israel wants this shit to end and wants to be left alone. Palestine does not want this to end.

motivez · 12-16-2007, 12:52 PM

Israel is as much of an aggressor as the Palestinian people, if you want to compare the number of people each side has killed, the attacks launched by Israel have killed far more than those launched by Palestinian fighters.

You've also bought into the media narrative that's been framed by massive pro-Israeli media lobbies that always frames Israel as responding to aggression in any action they take, and it's simply not true.

Israel's policy is just as much to blame, like I said, poverty and extremism are certainly linked, similar to how poverty and crime are here in the US. The difference is in the types of opportunities available here in the US vs in Palestine, and some of the only options many of those young men have is to join up with a militia and fight the oppression they suffer.

If Israel stopped attacking, plowing over their fields, bulldozing their homes, launching military incursions, controlling roads, borders, water, electricity, etc.. then maybe things could start to change.. but so long as ordinary people continue to suffer through those indignities, there will always be justification to fight back against it.

There was a great documentary on HBO about an Israeli mother who wanted to meet the mother of the girl who blew herself up and killed her daughter.. I suggest watching it, it gives some great insight into the thinking of an ordinary family living in Palestine.. and if people here and in Israel aren't willing to understand someone else's point of view and only want to talk down to them about how they should do this or that and it's so easy, then there really isn't much else to say or do.

You say they should start taking care of their own people. It's amusing and sad to see people over simplify the issue. How are they supposed to do that when Israel controls their destiny in every important way? Israel controls all the land, the borders, the resources, etc?

The only solution is a two state solution, with full autonomy granted to the Palestinian people. Until they have that, you can't tell them to stop attacking, because they're living under a military occupation and are fighting against that, and while I certainly don't agree with their methods, any self respecting person on this forum who has ever argued for the defense of America would fight back if some country invaded us and was occupying land we thought was ours.

It doesn't even matter who's right or who's wrong or who started what, unless they are given autonomy, there's never going to be any change.. and only Israel (and the US through it's foreign policy) has the ability to make the decisions that can start the Palestinian people on a path out of poverty and towards positive change.

JaJae · 12-16-2007, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Israel is as much of an aggressor as the Palestinian people, if you want to compare the number of people each side has killed, the attacks launched by Israel have killed far more than those launched by Palestinian fighters.

Just because the Israel's are more militarily efficient doesn't mean they're just as aggressive. Palestinians consistently bomb Israel from civilian areas. Even after the threat of being retaliated against. They choose to continue firing from these civilian areas because those civilian deaths play into the hands of the liberal media and liberals around the world.

What is Israel to do? Stand there and allow Palestine to continue bombing Israel with no fear of retaliation? If that is the logic perhaps Israel should run out into the sea and wipe themselves off the map.

It doesn't even matter who's right or who's wrong or who started what, unless they are given autonomy, there's never going to be any change.. and only Israel (and the US through it's foreign policy) has the ability to make the decisions that can start the Palestinian people on a path out of poverty and towards positive change.

How exactly does Israel have that ability? You act as if the Palestinians have come to some collective view of wanting to change. Whenever Israel gives an inch, they take a mile and Israelis end up dead.

Israel wouldn't have control over those things such as roads, water, etc if Palestine wasn't using the area as a launching pad to wage war against Israel. If the Palestinians could have lived on that land in peace that never would have happened. What would you have done if you were in charge of protecting