Non-Christians (or non-believers), why do you celebrate Christmas?

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Because since the beginning of the thread, I've asked why non-believers celebrate a traditionally celebrated Christian holiday HERE IN THIS COUNTRY. Most of the posts have to do with how Christmas wasn't Christian to begin with, but that's completely irrelevant of my question.

Our cultural traditions IN THIS COUNTRY are what they are, there is no point in fighting that. So that's why I ask, why do you as a non-believer celebrate it? It was an honest question.

because it is generally a holiday easily celebrated with no religious connotation whatsoever. hell, i know a few jews that are celebrating this year and got trees for the first time. it's becoming disassociated with Christianity anyhow, and considering how many different people celebrate this holiday, why wouldn't families take the free day off to spend with their families????????

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Linzyhop

why wouldn't families take the free day off to spend with their families????????

There's a lot more involved in celebrating Christmas than just taking a day off work

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Dylith

Why do you feel the need to celebrate a traditionally pagan holiday as a Christian? Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus or with Christianity and is very unbiblical.

Your question is irrelevant...it's not traditionally a pagan holiday in this country. Anything else you said after that question is moot.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

There's a lot more involved in celebrating Christmas than just taking a day off work

maybe you didn't read the whole sentence:

why wouldn't families take the free day off to spend with their families????????

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Your question is irrelevant...it's not traditionally a pagan holiday in this country. Anything else you said after that question is moot.

so you're fine with celebrating a holiday that christianity hijacked and has become acceptable overtime to forget about the REAL holiday just because the majority of folks are now ignorant??????

[Dylith]

Decorating a tree goes against Biblical scripture and yet is a main part of Christmas.

It is a terribly materialistic holiday considering that Christianity isn't a materialistic religion at all.

Yet you practice these things and call them Christian? You use Pagan religious symbols and partake in old pagan rituals in celebration of a monotheistic religion?

How blasphemous.

[Simius]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Because since the beginning of the thread, I've asked why non-believers celebrate a traditionally celebrated Christian holiday HERE IN THIS COUNTRY. Most of the posts have to do with how Christmas wasn't Christian to begin with, but that's completely irrelevant of my question.

Our cultural traditions IN THIS COUNTRY are what they are, there is no point in fighting that. So that's why I ask, why do you as a non-believer celebrate it? It was an honest question.

Because our cultural traditions IN THIS COUNTRY are what they are, there is no point in fighting that. One of the cultural traditions IN THIS COUNTRY is to get together with family on or around Xmas and give gifts under a tree. But it is pretty easy to celebrate all the non-Christian aspects of the holiday and have nothing religious behind it. (Non-religious aspects = Xmas trees, gifts, spending time with family, big fucking dinners, mistletoe, Santa Clause, Uncle Earl getting drunk and yelling at Aunt Martha, etc) If we also celebrated Jesus being born... then you might have a point.

Question for you: Why do you celebrate Halloween? Is it maybe, because it is a cultural thing to celebrate Halloween in this country?

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by Simius

Question for you: Why do you celebrate Halloween? Is it maybe, because it is a cultural thing to celebrate Halloween in this country?

touche!

[jimeigh]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Why not?

separation of church and state.

That's how our country was formed right?

incorrect. our country was formed with a separation of church and state, and without christmas as a national holiday. christmas was only declared a national holiday in 1870.

Why do you want so badly to change what has been our country's tradition for decades, if not over a century?

i dont mind it being a national holiday. it's a fun holiday to celebrate even without religious trappings, and it's a nice little push for the national economy. it's a good national holiday to have for secular reasons, so im not actually trying to get anything changed. but you, as the christian, should be upset by the secularization of your holy holiday, and thus YOU should be trying to get the traditions of the country changed.

and im not sure why you think the word "tradition" grants sanctuary to bad policy.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Simius

Question for you: Why do you celebrate Halloween? Is it maybe, because it is a cultural thing to celebrate Halloween in this country?

I don't!

It's the devil's night

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by jimeigh

separation of church and state.

incorrect. our country was formed with a separation of church and state, and without christmas as a national holiday. christmas was only declared a national holiday in 1870.

Incorrect. "Separation of Church and State" are words that you'll never find in our country's founding documents. In fact, so intertwined was Christianity and the church in the founding fathers and our documents that you'd be hard-pressed to find any separation at all.

But certainly this is better for a different thread.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I don't!

It's the devil's night

um, excuse me. then why praytell did you dress up as a cowboy???

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Incorrect. "Separation of Church and State" are words that you'll never find in our country's founding documents. In fact, so intertwined was Christianity and the church in the founding fathers and our documents that you'd be hard-pressed to find any separation at all.

But certainly this is better for a different thread.

oh really???

some food for thought:

Argument: The phrase 'separation of Church and state' is of recent origin, and the concept was not known or promulgated by the founders.

False. The Founders were well aware of the threats posed by religion/state entanglement; it's what gave the world Kings with "divine right."

The exact phrase was first used in Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the decision to seperate state and religion:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

James Madison, principal author of the constitution:

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." (1819).

Argument: But the founders meant only that no sect of Christianity was to be elevated above another, but still meant our government to be Christian...

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Madison, Annals of Congress, 1789).

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" (Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance)

"Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. " (ibid)

"How a regulation so unjust in itself, so foreign to the authority of Congress, and so hurtful to the sale of public land, and smelling so strongly of an antiquated bigotry, could have received the countenance of a committee is truly a matter of astonishment ." (Madison, 1785, letter to James Monroe, on a failed attempt by congress to set aside public funds to support churches)

[Simius]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I don't!

It's the devil's night

Party pooper.

But seriously, you don't dress up like a democrat and scare your neighbors or give out candy to the kiddies? You are missing out on a good time.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Linzyhop

um, excuse me. then why praytell did you dress up as a cowboy???

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Dylith

I don't celebrate it.

But I asked a follow up question as well which is perfectly relevant.

Why do you feel the need to celebrate a traditionally pagan holiday as a Christian? Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus or with Christianity and is very unbiblical.

I even posted scripture which seems to be against certain customs such as decorating trees.


If you can take a celebration that has absolutely nothing to do with your religion and have fun during it, then why cannot atheists do the same?

I think I pointed out in another thread somewhere that most Christians have no problems ignoring certain parts of the bible that are inconvenient or go against today's more liberal societal standards, ie: women supposing to be submissive to their husbands, the condoning of slavery, the killing of non-believers, etc, and there's a lot of stuff in there that just seems silly, like the whole mixed fabrics thing.

I think a lot of Christians talk themselves out of following those because they don't seem as important as other main themes, or think they're no longer relevant because we've progressed so much since those times.. but if you believe the bible is truly the word of God, then I don't really understand how you can say certain things God has said are unimportant or irrelevant..

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think I pointed out in another thread somewhere that most Christians have no problems ignoring certain parts of the bible that are inconvenient or go against today's more liberal societal standards, ie: women supposing to be submissive to their husbands, the condoning of slavery, the killing of non-believers, etc, and there's a lot of stuff in there that just seems silly, like the whole mixed fabrics thing.

I think a lot of Christians talk themselves out of following those because they don't seem as important as other main themes, or think they're no longer relevant because we've progressed so much since those times.. but if you believe the bible is truly the word of God, then I don't really understand how you can say certain things God has said are unimportant or irrelevant..

Because if you actually read the Bible, the New Testament explicitly states that some things in the Old Testament are no longer necessary, as a result of the Ultimate Sacrifice given us.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Because if you actually read the Bible, the New Testament explicitly states that some things in the Old Testament are no longer necessary, as a result of the Ultimate Sacrifice given us.

i'm taking a guess here, but i think some of what he's talking about is in the new testament.