What Benazir Bhutto's death tells us about Radical Islamism

ballz2wallz · 12-29-2007, 04:45 PM

As everyone is already aware Benazir Bhutto was assassinated Dec 27, 2007 as she was at a political rally. She had returned from exile in Britain after she was allowed to run for political office again. She had already been the first woman elected Prime Minister of an Islamic nation, so she was a figuredhead of progress for all Islamic nations.

So what does she stand for, and what does her assassination mean?

To me she represents several factors of the Islamic people and the nations therein. First, she became Prime Minister of Pakistan in 1988 at the age of 35. This, along with Pakistan's nuclear arms capabilities reached in 1998, signifies that Pakistan is probably one of the more progressive nations in the Islamic world. Pakistan is probably years ahead of many of the other nations in the Muslim world as far as progress, in international policy, but also basic human rights. I mean, a pro-democracy woman having power in an Islamic country? It's almost unheard of in most Muslim nations. But it happened, and it provides an example to other Muslim nations and peoples.

But there is still one problem. The reaction to Bhutto's campaign was still very negative, and she paid a hefty price for it. This tells us that Pakistan hasn't reached the progress we hoped they had. In fact, maybe they regressed, going from electing a woman as prime minister in 1988 to killing her when she wants to run again. One would think that having reached a milestone like that so long ago would make Pakistan very progressive today. Not so. If Pakistan is a sign of the progress that is still needed in other Muslim nations, we have many decades before we still some real change.

The second thing that struck me is this: Bhutto was a Muslim woman, having served her country for many years as prime minister, and a great figurehead that many people were able to get behind and support. She wanted democracy and freedom in Pakistan. She wanted rights for women in Pakistan. She wanted many of things that we here in the US respect and admire. Did she 'meddle in the affairs of the Middle East'? No, she meddled in the affairs of her own country, something she is entitled to do.

So what does this tell me? That this is a true sign of what Muslims hate about the United States. We have for the past many years been arguing about what makes them hate us, and the controversy has been between two main talking points: they hate us for our culture of freedom or they hate us for meddling in their political and economic affairs. But I think the assassination of Bhutto is a prime example of what it is they truly hate, and that's the culture of freedom. They hate that she was a woman. They hate she stood for a free and united culture, and so they killed her.

We have heard very recently of many instances where women are downtrodden, beat, killed, etc over having boyfriends, sexual relationships, or even been victims themselves. This doesn't just happen in Muslim countries, but all over the world. There is no respect for women. There are no basic rights for women. She stood for women, and they killed her.

Sure, there have been claims from the Muslim world that they hate us for meddling in their affairs, but to me that is an attempt at psy-ops. That is their attempt to turn the American people against their own government, and it's worked. Many have falled for that. But actions speak louder than words. Their efforts all over the world to kill anybody that stands for freedom and basic human rights overshadow their words that simply state 'we hate for you messing with us'. Their efforts are completely directed at the US, not the governments that we 'meddle' with. If they truly hated our presence in the oil industry, why not attack the Saudi government? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and much of their money comes from the US.

No, they don't hate us for meddling, they hate us for being free, as they hated Bhutto for wanting freedom. We still have a long way to go in those countries before we have real progress in both freedom and human rights, for women and for men.

Her assassination was a sad day for everyone.

RMNIXON · 12-29-2007, 04:53 PM

Thanks Ballz for that introduction to Elephant in the Room. No matter her politics she was a woman. In the Islamic world that is a much bigger deal than posting an unflatering picture of Hillary looking old and tired on the web. You cannot measure this situation in Pakistan by our standards.

Stylerod · 12-29-2007, 04:56 PM

Good post. But it's impossible to say why she was killed. We don't even know who killed her. Hell, now they are saying she wasn't even shot. She hit her head on the sun roof trying to duck away from the shots. There are too many unknowns to say why she was killed.

Plenty of Muslims are dying in the ME who don't want freedom. They just want something a little different than the next Muslim. Doesn't seem like they need a lot of excuses to kill each other.

ballz2wallz · 12-29-2007, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Good post. But it's impossible to say why she was killed. We don't even know who killed her. Hell, now they are saying she wasn't even shot. She hit her head on the sun roof trying to duck away from the shots. There are too many unknowns to say why she was killed.

Plenty of Muslims are dying in the ME who don't want freedom. They just want something a little different than the next Muslim. Doesn't seem like they need a lot of excuses to kill each other.

She died from a gunshot wound:

Bhutto died of a gunshot wound to the neck, the Pakistani Interior Ministry said. The attacker then blew himself up. The bomb attack killed at least 22 others, doctors said.

Pakistan and al Qaeda both claim it was al Qaeda.

Stylerod · 12-29-2007, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

She died from a gunshot wound:

Pakistan and al Qaeda both claim it was al Qaeda.

LANKA BUSINESS ONLINE - LBO

The government said that Bhutto died after banging her head on the sunroof of her vehicle while trying to duck when an attacker came up and started firing before blowing herself up. It said she had no bullet wounds.

ballz2wallz · 12-29-2007, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stylerod

LANKA BUSINESS ONLINE - LBO

Either way, no matter how she was killed, they tried to kill her. She was assassinated. There had been previous attempts on her life. They were successful this time.

RMNIXON · 12-29-2007, 05:09 PM

And while I have nothing personal against her, standing up through her bullet and bomb proof SUV sun roof in the same place they hanged her father was just stupid!

Thorgrim · 12-29-2007, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

And while I have nothing personal against her, standing up through her bullet and bomb proof SUV sun roof in the same place they hanged her father was just stupid!

She was running, there was an election, you can't really campaign from under a bunker

Thorgrim · 12-29-2007, 05:15 PM

Also, saying Pakistan has regressed as a society because they killed a woman is like saying America during the middle of the 20th century regressed back towards the slavery era because a black civil rights worker was shot

In fact in the 21st century we've had white hate crimes, are we all regressing?

ballz2wallz · 12-29-2007, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

And while I have nothing personal against her, standing up through her bullet and bomb proof SUV sun roof in the same place they hanged her father was just stupid!

She was warned not to go out there. Her people asked her not to do it, that they she didn't have to go out in public to campaign. But she insisted, despite previous attempts, that her people needed her there. I admire her for her courage. I think she knew she would die.

garbagemanlb · 12-29-2007, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

She was warned not to go out there. Her people asked her not to do it, that they she didn't have to go out in public to campaign. But she insisted, despite previous attempts, that her people needed her there. I admire her for her courage. I think she knew she would die.

and she said if she did die it was because of Musharraf(sp).

The crime scene was cleaned of evidence and no autopsy was performed. The requested security was never provided. The election was a week away.

I'd say there is more then enough reason to question if it was a group other than Al Qaeda.

garbagemanlb · 12-29-2007, 06:04 PM

I also find it extremely ironic that the party of 'personal responsibility' seems to have issues with taking responsibility (to even a partial degree) for our involvement and meddling in others countries affairs for decades.

Even when our own intelligence reports say so.

Guess that ideology only works when it benefits your side!

IminWonderland · 12-29-2007, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

She was running, there was an election, you can't really campaign from under a bunker

I have heard her interviews on NPR, and she had said that although there was a threat for her life, and she very well knew it, that she would continue to campaign even though it might cost her life.

She was a woman that I looked up to as someone who could make real change for people, and I'm really sad that she was murdered. She wanted to give her life to Pakistan, and it is terrible for their country that they won't have her fighting for them. Instead, they will have a puppet dictator.

I think that her representation is larger than being a woman in her stature, although it is a large part of it. Even in the face of death, she was a patriot, and it wasn't for a country or loyalty, it was for ideals and dreams.

At the point of her being a woman, it makes me wish that more women were able to get into her position, or at least wanted to.

IminWonderland · 12-29-2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

and she said if she did die it was because of Musharraf(sp).

The crime scene was cleaned of evidence and no autopsy was performed. The requested security was never provided. The election was a week away.

I'd say there is more then enough reason to question if it was a group other than Al Qaeda.

I feel with this event, this fact is what is the real elephant in the room.

Speculation aside, it is so obvious which side is behind this, and I don't believe it was solely Al Quida and neither do alot of other people. Musharraf has the bigger reason for her wiped out than they do. She called it, for sure.

Donkey® · 12-30-2007, 04:45 AM

All this talk about Muslims hate women yet I have seen pretty brutal and unprovoked "attacks" on Clinton in this country. We're supposed to be the more civilized ones? You can compare the anti-women people in this country to the same radicals you are speaking of in Muslim countries. To claim one country has more hate filled woman bashers than the other is pretty stupid.

On top of all that...there's no real proof of anything in this case. How she died...who killed her...it's all speculation and I wouldn't believe a fucking thing the Pakistani government has to say on it. Whether because they are a pawn on our chessboard...or whether it is because they actually committed the crime themselves...or whether or not they facilitated a third party to commit the crime is unknown at this time and giving them any more credit than some random Pakistani on the street claiming it was Big Bird in a weed dispute is pretty stupid too.

ballz2wallz · 12-30-2007, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

All this talk about Muslims hate women yet I have seen pretty brutal and unprovoked "attacks" on Clinton in this country. We're supposed to be the more civilized ones?

JaJae · 12-30-2007, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

All this talk about Muslims hate women yet I have seen pretty brutal and unprovoked "attacks" on Clinton in this country. We're supposed to be the more civilized ones?

Um... yes.

IminWonderland · 12-30-2007, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

All this talk about Muslims hate women yet I have seen pretty brutal and unprovoked "attacks" on Clinton in this country. We're supposed to be the more civilized ones? You can compare the anti-women people in this country to the same radicals you are speaking of in Muslim countries. To claim one country has more hate filled woman bashers than the other is pretty stupid.

On top of all that...there's no real proof of anything in this case. How she died...who killed her...it's all speculation and I wouldn't believe a fucking thing the Pakistani government has to say on it. Whether because they are a pawn on our chessboard...or whether it is because they actually committed the crime themselves...or whether or not they facilitated a third party to commit the crime is unknown at this time and giving them any more credit than some random Pakistani on the street claiming it was Big Bird in a weed dispute is pretty stupid too.

Donkey, I think you have a valid point. Women in America have it good, NO DOUBT. But, it certainly isn't the level that it should be.

I do not think she was killed for being a woman. She was killed because she wanted to take Pakistan away from a Dictatorship.

RMNIXON · 12-30-2007, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

She was warned not to go out there. Her people asked her not to do it, that they she didn't have to go out in public to campaign. But she insisted, despite previous attempts, that her people needed her there. I admire her for her courage. I think she knew she would die.

I would never say don't go. But America picked up on the open car parade problem in 1963. You know how that ended! So stay in your damn car out of sight until you can be taken to a secure location if that is even possible?