Iowa this week, what are your predictions?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

No, 65% of attending democrats did.

Independents are not Democrats

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by motivez

Actually, I'm pretty sure there's been polling in the last few months that show most of America favors universal healthcare

Considering the system is broken and I don't believe the free market can fix it (maximizing profits often comes at the price of your customers life, and that really sucks for consumers).. I'm not sure it's such a horrible idea. The people I know in Europe, Canada, etc.. wouldn't trade their systems for ours.

Although, an interesting question arises, if most of the country wants universal healthcare, isn't that the market speaking in a way? Or no?

I'm curious why libertarians usually talk about a marketplace of ideas, yet when it goes against them...they cry foul

The MIDDLE-CLASS wants the government to come in and clean up the system, with universal healthcare being included (losing your income is hard enough, having to tell your kids they can't see a doctor anymore...)

That raises another interesting tangent, how many of you have actually been told by your parents when you were younger that even if you were REALLY sick, to not visit a doctor because the family couldn't afford it

I had more than a few friends who were told that unless they couldn't stop the bleeding, they were forbidden from going to doctors...unless they wanted to be shunned by the family

I don't think a lot of people know that side of America, and how dreadful it is

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

Actually, I'm pretty sure there's been polling in the last few months that show most of America favors universal healthcare

Considering the system is broken and I don't believe the free market can fix it (maximizing profits often comes at the price of your customers life, and that really sucks for consumers).. I'm not sure it's such a horrible idea. The people I know in Europe, Canada, etc.. wouldn't trade their systems for ours.

Although, an interesting question arises, if most of the country wants universal healthcare, isn't that the market speaking in a way? Or no?

I recently posted something C. S. Lewis wrote about patriotism, stating that even though someone may be in the worst country in the world, they still love their country and say it's the best, because it's theirs. The same could apply to healthcare. What good would it do for someone in another country to claim their healthcare is no good when it would do nothing but bring shame and unhappiness to them? Of course they are going to say they wouldn't want to change it...it's all they have and there's nothing they can do about it.

Why is it you would dismiss all other examples of the government failing at something they control to say they would succeed at healthcare?

[motivez]

I don't buy into your premise at all, shame or being unhappy about something doesn't preclude someone from discussing a subject.. many are unhappy with things in this country, it doesn't mean we're going to go around pretending.

I've had very candid discussions with people from all over the world about various political topics, everything from war, health care, taxes, etc.. what you're suggesting doesn't enter into the conversation.

The ones with socialized health care systems haven't told me their systems are perfect, and there are problems with every system including theirs (which I've also discussed with them), but they still wouldn't trade what they have for what we have in the US.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'm curious why libertarians usually talk about a marketplace of ideas, yet when it goes against them...they cry foul

The MIDDLE-CLASS wants the government to come in and clean up the system, with universal healthcare being included (losing your income is hard enough, having to tell your kids they can't see a doctor anymore...)

That raises another interesting tangent, how many of you have actually been told by your parents when you were younger that even if you were REALLY sick, to not visit a doctor because the family couldn't afford it

I had more than a few friends who were told that unless they couldn't stop the bleeding, they were forbidden from going to doctors...unless they wanted to be shunned by the family

I don't think a lot of people know that side of America, and how dreadful it is

The middle class wants it because that is what they are told is the only fix!!!! The Federal Government has everything to gain by getting into this, that is why those in Washington are trying so hard.

No one is out there telling them how much government is actually IN the health care system.

Please, god, tell me - with Medicare and Medicade going bankrupt in a decade, how do you think Universal Health Care would go?

I knwo you will say "it will be the best thing since electricity" but how can you bury your head in the sand and ignore the insane failure that is Medicare and Medicade? Pray tell.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

So did 65%+ of Iowans

Iowa is a red state too

Proof of this?

Or because they voted for a democrat you assume so

[motivez]

The only reason there's a problem with the funding is because people keep raiding the funds for other shit, no?

That whole "lockbox" idea isn't sounding so stupid now for social security or the other programs.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

Considering the system is broken and I don't believe the free market can fix it (maximizing profits often comes at the price of your customers life, and that really sucks for consumers).

What are you talking about? Medical care is medical care. It is not Miracles from the almighty. How many public millions or billions should be spent just to keep people "alive" even if it that means constant medical attention, cronic pain, and misery? Or in the case of those who no longer have a working brain just a medical mass of living cells? What is the line if healthcare is a public right? I see no end of it.

Tell me who are being murdered for profit? How does a medical provider become responsible for your life other than the outcome of treatement you pay for? You seem to ask for Godlike qualities out of a service. Good luck getting that out of Government!

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by hsmith

Proof of this?

Or because they voted for a democrat you assume so

Of all the hundreds of thousands of votes cast, I think after spending like an hour discussing their candidates, they figured out who was for universal healthcare, caucusing is a much more informed vote than a primary...and 65% of Iowa voters went to supporters of universal healthcare

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by hsmith

The middle class wants it because that is what they are told is the only fix!!!! The Federal Government has everything to gain by getting into this, that is why those in Washington are trying so hard.

No one is out there telling them how much government is actually IN the health care system.

Please, god, tell me - with Medicare and Medicade going bankrupt in a decade, how do you think Universal Health Care would go?

I knwo you will say "it will be the best thing since electricity" but how can you bury your head in the sand and ignore the insane failure that is Medicare and Medicade? Pray tell.

It's been said before that Social Security, et al were going bankrupt soon, doom was near and we needed some fix that would cripple society blah blah

We fixed it, and now Social Security isn't facing a crisis for a long time...we'll fix the funding for programs again

It was the Republicans who re-did Medicare, according to them it's been doing better, even though they lied about the costs, and no one is seriously campaigning on trying to drastically cut or get rid of medicare/medicaid

[Ardentfrost]

You can blame Republicans all you want for ruining the current state of universal healthcare, but the fact remains that if they can't manage it, and it's reasonable to assume they'll be in power again eventually, that they'll bungle it up then again, and if everyone is forced to rely on that shit, then we're REALLY screwed.

And I'm certainly not claiming I believe the insinuation that the Democrats are the almighty saviors of every socialized program we have. I'm just taking on your view to show a point in why the government can't be trusted with more and more responsibility.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

You can blame Republicans all you want for ruining the current state of universal healthcare, but the fact remains that if they can't manage it, and it's reasonable to assume they'll be in power again eventually, that they'll bungle it up then again, and if everyone is forced to rely on that shit, then we're REALLY screwed.

And I'm certainly not claiming I believe the insinuation that the Democrats are the almighty saviors of every socialized program we have. I'm just taking on your view to show a point in why the government can't be trusted with more and more responsibility.

They never got any major reforms, besides even after 2004, the GOP and all their majorities and power and 9/11 fear...still couldn't touch social security, and everyone kept getting their checks...

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'm curious why libertarians usually talk about a marketplace of ideas, yet when it goes against them...they cry foul

Its never a marketplace failure to them, its always "the government did something that caused the market to fail" or "it wasn't a real marketplace in the precise, narrow definition we have created that doesn't and can never exist in the real world therefore the market is always perfect."

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

The ones with socialized health care systems haven't told me their systems are perfect, and there are problems with every system including theirs (which I've also discussed with them), but they still wouldn't trade what they have for what we have in the US.

I wouldn't expect them to until they've tried it.

Listening to people such as yourself speak so poorly on the system, why would they want it?

[motivez]

You're making the assumption that they've gotten their information from me and haven't independently learned anything about the subject before discussing it.. and it's an incorrect one.

They don't rely on me to give them information before forming an opinion.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

You're making the assumption that they've gotten their information from me and haven't independently learned anything about the subject before discussing it.. and it's an incorrect one.

They don't rely on me to give them information before forming an opinion.

That's why I said this:

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Listening to people such as yourself speak so poorly on the system, why would they want it?

In case you don't understand (which apparently you don't), it means people like you, not necessarily you.

[motivez]

I don't really want to get into a semantics game

If you're wanting to discuss vague and generalized concepts of what might make some people feel the way they do about our health care system vs theirs based on my feelings about it, I can't really speculate about people who don't actually exist.

I was relating my conversations with friends of mine who've had experience with universal health care systems in their own countries.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

I was relating my conversations with friends of mine who've had experience with universal health care systems in their own countries.

You can't tell me your cookie is better than mine if you've never had a bite of mine.

[motivez]

There's hardly a lack of material online about the health care system in this country (and elsewhere)

They obviously don't have first hand experience, but I don't think they need to have it to learn about the various processes involved in getting treatment, etc.. and then compare to what's involved where they live.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

There's hardly a lack of material online about the health care system in this country (and elsewhere)

They obviously don't have first hand experience, but I don't think they need to have it to learn about the various processes involved in getting treatment, etc.. and then compare to what's involved where they live.

Uh, yes they do. Like I said before, you can't take other people's words for it (people like you who dislike it) to make a judgement.

This isn't arguing semantics, it's a fact. You just can't compare things based on what people say or what you read online.

The state of healthcare here also goes beyond the healthcare alone (which happens to be some of the best in the world...nobody has the technology and abilities like we do in our system). It comes to how much healthcare is. Of course, someone comign from a country is going to frown when they realize they actually have to pay for healthcare here. But they sure aren't frowing when they realize they actually get to keep the money they earn. Until someone actually lives here and has a real experience of our whole system, it still isnt' even a fair comparison.