illegal to copy a CD you legally bought??

7960 · 12-30-2007, 08:43 PM

The industry's lawyer in the case, Ira Schwartz, argues in a brief filed earlier this month that the MP3 files Howell made on his computer from legally bought CDs are "unauthorized copies" of copyrighted recordings.

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

Bullshit. I'm not breaking encryption. I'm not distributing the songs. I'm not "borrowing" a CD from someone to get the music.

I bought it, ripped it to my hard drive, and put it on my mp3 player. The RIAA is grasping at straws on this one.

This is the correct view

But lawyers for consumers point to a series of court rulings over the last few decades that found no violation of copyright law in the use of VCRs and other devices to time-shift TV programs; that is, to make personal copies for the purpose of making portable a legally obtained recording.

When will the RIAA get it?

Ardentfrost · 12-30-2007, 09:12 PM

I hope they get it soon. Once the movie industry stopped bitching about VCR's, theater experience got better. I'd love to see some sort of music experience get better because they turn their focus and money somewhere else.

Wakefield · 12-31-2007, 02:02 AM

Suing your customers is a great business strategy

RMNIXON · 12-31-2007, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I hope they get it soon. Once the movie industry stopped bitching about VCR's, theater experience got better. I'd love to see some sort of music experience get better because they turn their focus and money somewhere else.

I am old enough to recall when VCRs were going to destroy the Movie Theater business!

motivez · 12-31-2007, 06:33 PM

What's going to eventually happen is CD's will become collectors items for hardcore fans, that'll include extras, and blah blah blah.. and most music will be distributed via download in one form or another.

The CD is already dead IMO, they're outdated and the only people with portable CD players that they use on a regular basis are those without the money to afford an mp3 player of some sort..

Ardentfrost · 12-31-2007, 06:40 PM

Hell, you can get an MP3 playing phone for free if you sign a contract

WickedLou9 · 01-02-2008, 10:58 AM

That's stupid on so many levels.

THe RIAA is clearly trying to fight the movement to digital media because it poses a risk for them. There really is no basis for this lawsuit. I'm suprised it has been allowed to go forward at all. The last gasps from a dying industry.

I think that the days of the mega record producers are numbered. The internet and the ease of distributing digitial media will make them obsolete. Add to that the increase in social networking, people putting music on thier pages, the speed with which buzz can spread on the internet... Why do we need some mega-company to be churning out hard copies of CD's and spending millions on marketing ( and taking all the profit ) when the truly good music will become well known just through e-word of mouth?

I think You're right. They are totally grasping at straws trying to fight the movement towards digital media. They will fail. It's just a matter of time.

The REAL shame is that regular people like you and me have to get in the way of RIAA rage and be the subject of lawsuits potentially ruining people financially for the rest of thier lives.

7960 · 01-02-2008, 11:08 AM

Update...a friend of my wife's is an IP lawyer at HP. In the past she's gone on rants about how ripping a DVD is theft. Of course she's right about DVDs, but whatever.

So she was at new years with us and I mentioned this and she went off on "distributing is theft and blah blah blah." I said "wait, I bought the CD and I ripped it and put the music on my MP3 player. I didn't give it to anyone." She said "well, that should be illegal, too." I asked her to get back to me when she finds a reason why.

WickedLou9 · 01-02-2008, 11:08 AM

IF they really wanted to make a case they would have sued Apple and other companies that provide software which allows customers to rip CD's directly into MP3, like iTunes does. I think they know full well that they would never win such a case and they are suing people who can't afford teams of high priced lawyers like Apple would be able to do. They are suing people who can't defend themselves very well in the hopes of winning a precedant setting case.

WickedLou9 · 01-02-2008, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Update...a friend of my wife's is an IP lawyer at HP. In the past she's gone on rants about how ripping a DVD is theft. Of course she's right about DVDs, but whatever.

So she was at new years with us and I mentioned this and she went off on "distributing is theft and blah blah blah." I said "wait, I bought the CD and I ripped it and put the music on my MP3 player. I didn't give it to anyone." She said "well, that should be illegal, too." I asked her to get back to me when she finds a reason why.

IS it illegal to format shift? IE move your VHS movies to DVD? Or take your old 45rpm records and record them onto your PC into MP3 format? I would be willing to bet that these activities are perfectly legal. copying a CD or a DVD into digital format is no different.

7960 · 01-02-2008, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

IS it illegal to format shift? IE move your VHS movies to DVD?

Fair Use says you can copy what you legally bought.

DMCA makes it illegal to break encryption and since most DVDs are encrypted *that* is what makes "backing up" DVDs illegal. If you happened to have a DVD that's not encrypted then you can legally copy it under Fair Use. And actually there's a case out there where someone made software that copies an entire DVD, encryption and all. It basically does a block transfer so it never technically breaks/bypasses the encryption. I haven't read yet if that software is legal under DMCA.

I would be willing to bet that these activities are perfectly legal. copying a CD or a DVD into digital format is no different.

For a CD, you're right. For a DVD you are not.

WickedLou9 · 01-02-2008, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Fair Use says you can copy what you legally bought.

DMCA makes it illegal to break encryption and since most DVDs are encrypted *that* is what makes "backing up" DVDs illegal. If you happened to have a DVD that's not encrypted then you can legally copy it under Fair Use. And actually there's a case out there where someone made software that copies an entire DVD, encryption and all. It basically does a block transfer so it never technically breaks/bypasses the encryption. I haven't read yet if that software is legal under DMCA.

For a CD, you're right. For a DVD you are not.

That's bad law then. Encrypting a DVD to prevent someone from format shifting should be a violation of anti-trust regulations. It's only goal is to prevent someone from moving thier media collection to another format, stifling competition.

7960 · 01-02-2008, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

That's bad law then.

DMCA? Of course it's bad law. But it's currently the law (in the US).

WickedLou9 · 01-02-2008, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

DMCA? Of course it's bad law. But it's currently the law (in the US).

I think that brings me back to my statement that they are suing people who can't defend themselves with the hopes of winning precedant setting cases.

bheld · 01-02-2008, 12:27 PM

Yet another thread about a topic that is the direct result of corporate and other moneyed interests having a stranglehold on government and justice in this country.

It's time to do something about it instead of argue about the details. This needs to be recognized for what it is: an unreasonable case put before a sympathetic court of federally-appointed judges that have been vetted by private industry. Superficially this is a copyright issue, but looking deeper it's a symptom of a much larger problem and until we can diagnose and treat the cause we're going to be on this merry-go-round of outrage for the rest of our lives.

Publius · 01-02-2008, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

Yet another thread about a topic that is the direct result of corporate and other moneyed interests having a stranglehold on government and justice in this country.

It's time to do something about it instead of argue about the details. This needs to be recognized for what it is: an unreasonable case put before a sympathetic court of federally-appointed judges that have been vetted by private industry. Superficially this is a copyright issue, but looking deeper it's a symptom of a much larger problem and until we can diagnose and treat the cause we're going to be on this merry-go-round of outrage for the rest of our lives.

If government weren't involved in the process, there wouldn't be idiotic laws like this on the books for these corporations to fall back on.

7960 · 01-02-2008, 12:34 PM

Actually I was wrong.

Despite what some websites are reporting, the RIAA is NOT saying that ripping CDs into MP3s is illegal.

The story started on lawyer Ray Beckerman’s Recording Industry vs. The People blog. In a post yesterday Beckerman is claiming that the RIAA is saying that ripping CDs for personal use is illegal. This simply isn’t true. Instead, what the RIAA is saying is that ripping CDs and then subsequently making those files available to others (by, for example, putting them into a folder that’s shared on Kazaa) is an infringement.

» The RIAA is NOT saying that ripping your CDs is illegal | Hardware 2.0 | ZDNet.com

And

...the industry is claiming that ripped MP3s are "unauthorized copies," and it turns out that Jeffery isn't actually being sued for ripping CDs, ... but for plain old illegal downloading.

RIAA not suing over CD ripping, still kinda being jerks about it - Engadget

This is the part I thought was interesting.

While there's a pretty good argument for the legality of ripping under the market factor of fair use, it's never actually been ruled as such by a judge -- so paradoxically, the RIAA might be shooting itself in the foot here, because a judge wouldn't ever rule on it unless they argue that it's illegal. Looks like someone may end up being too clever for their own good, eh?

Turns out the newspaper got it wrong. The lawyer *said* it's not legal but that's not what the guy was actually being sued for.

bheld · 01-02-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

If government weren't involved in the process, there wouldn't be idiotic laws like this on the books for these corporations to fall back on.

This isn't a law, it's an outrageous attack on the common consumer carried out in the once-impartial courts system. I don't think there's any question of the need for intellectual property protection and property rights in general that the courts are meant to uphold. In fact it's vital for a productive society.

We can't dismissively explain away the shortcomings of our government because it is government. We need to place the blame directly where it is due, and that is on the people corrupting government.

Publius · 01-02-2008, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

This isn't a law, it's an outrageous attack on the common consumer carried out in the once-impartial courts system. I don't think there's any question of the need for intellectual property protection and property rights in general that the courts are meant to uphold. In fact it's vital for a productive society.

We can't dismissively explain away the shortcomings of our government because it is government. We need to place the blame directly where it is due, and that is on the people corrupting government.

Don't place the blame on people that are legally manipulating the system (lobbyists), place it on those that set up the system so that they can get rich off of it (politicians).

bheld · 01-02-2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Don't place the blame on people that are legally manipulating the system (lobbyists), place it on those that set up the system so that they can get rich off of it (politicians).

Legally manipulating the system? I'm sorry, but that phrase has no place in a democratic government.

You want to blame the founding fathers for giving us a system of government that was vulnerable to influence? Hello, our whole country is based on the fact that people like me and you