US Government programs to ruin the global economy

[ballz2wallz]

All this talk recently in the forum about the need for government involvement in all sorts of programs has led me to post this as an example of how government programs will eventually lead to the destruction of our country as a dominant economic leader.

US's triple-A credit rating 'under threat'


The US is at risk of losing its top-notch triple-A credit rating within a decade unless it takes radical action to curb soaring healthcare and social security spending, Moody's, the credit rating agency, said yesterday.

The warning over the future of the triple-A rating - granted to US government debt since it was first assessed in 1917 - reflects growing concerns over the country's ability to retain its financial and economic supremacy.

It could also put further pressure on candidates from both the Republican and Democratic parties to sharpen their focus on healthcare and pensions in the run-up to November's presidential election.

Most analysts expect future administrations to deal with the costs of healthcare and social security and there is no reflection of any long-term concern about the US's financial health in the value of its debt.

But Moody's warning comes at a time when US confidence in its economic prowess has been challenged by the rising threat of a recession, a weak dollar and the credit crunch.

In its annual report on the US, Moody's signalled increased concern that rapid rises in Medicare and Medicaid - the government-funded healthcare programmes for the old and the poor - would "cause major fiscal pressures" in years to come.

Unlike Moody's previous assessment of US government debt in 2005, yesterday's report specifically links rises in healthcare and social security spending to the credit rating.

"The combination of the medical programmes and social security is the most important threat to the triple-A rating over the long term," it said.

Steven Hess, Moody's lead analyst for the US, told the Financial Times that in order to protect the country's top rating, future administrations would have to rein in healthcare and social security costs.

"If no policy changes are made, in 10 years from now we would have to look very seriously at whether the US is still a triple-A credit," he said.

Mr Hess said any downgrade in the US rating would have serious consequences for the global economy. "The US rating is the anchor of the world's financial system. If you have a downgrade, you have a problem," he said.

Moody's did once threaten to cut the rating of some of the US Treasury's debt when Congress refused to pass the president's budget in the mid-1990s. Other large economies, notably Japan in the 1990s, have had to suffer the symbolic blow of losing their top-notch credit rating.

Last year, David Walker, comptroller general of the US, caused controversy when he compared America's current situation with the dying days of the Roman empire and warned the country was on "a burning platform" of unsustainable policies.

Medicare and Medicaid spending, which has risen sharply over the past few decades and now accounts for about 45 per cent of total federal spending, up from about 25 per cent in 1975, has long been a source of concern.

Last month, Peter Orszag, director of the Congressional Budget Office, which advises Congress on the federal budget, said the issue was "the central fiscal challenge" facing the US.

Most presidential candidates have vowed to reform the healthcare system but many of them, especially on the Democratic side, have focused on extending coverage to the 40m-plus uninsured Americans rather than on cutting costs

How can anyone justify universal healthcare when reports like this come out? How do you justify paying for this stuff? If you can justify it, at whta point do you stop increasing taxes to pay for increasing government spending?

Eventually we'll be paying everything we have to have the poorest in quality of everything we get. Who wants that?

[WickedLou9]

countries that have universal healthcare spend less than we spend and get better care than we get... Why do you think that we would somehow end up spending more and getting less? It's not lke this is an untried idea. It's already in place all over the developed world and the doomsday econommic scenerios that you keep talking about simply do not occur.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

countries that have universal healthcare spend less than we spend and get better care than we get...

If that were the case, why aren't people going elsewhere for healthcare? Why are people from around the world flocking here to get the best of care?

Why do you think that we would somehow end up spending more and getting less?

Because it's happening now

It's not lke this is an untried idea. It's already in place all over the developed world and the doomsday econommic scenerios that you keep talking about simply do not occur.

I do not want to live like the rest of the developed world...we have opportunities here that they don't have over there. We are a dominant figure in the global community because we aren't like the rest of the world.

[bheld]

Maybe starting $1 trillion wars has something to do with it.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by bheld

Maybe starting $1 trillion wars has something to do with it.

The report says otherwise

[bheld]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The report says otherwise

The "report" printed in a financial newspaper based on information provided by a private corporation that had a big hand in causing our current financial crisis through unethical credit rating practices?

Please excuse my suspension of belief in the validity of this "report." It sounds to me more like somebody is playing the misdirection game.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by bheld

The "report" printed in a financial newspaper based on information provided by a private corporation that had a big hand in causing our current financial crisis through unethical credit rating practices?

Please excuse my suspension of belief in the validity of this "report." It sounds to me more like somebody is playing the misdirection game.

I posted the report, I posted what they thought, and you're accusing me of misdirecting when you are the one that brought up something completely irrelevant?

[bheld]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I posted the report, I posted what they thought, and you're accusing me of misdirecting when you are the one that brought up something completely irrelevant?

Apparently you misunderstood. I was talking about Moody's, not you. I didn't mention you once in the post so "somebody" obviously wouldn't be referring to yourself, especially looking at it within the context of the post.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by bheld

Apparently you misunderstood. I was talking about Moody's, not you. I didn't mention you once in the post so "somebody" obviously wouldn't be referring to yourself, especially looking at it within the context of the post.

Why would Moody care about what's to blame for the US money troubles? What do they have to gain in the war? Are you suggesting they are not a credible organization?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moody's

[bheld]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Why would Moody care about what's to blame for the US money troubles? What do they have to gain in the war? Are you suggesting they are not a credible organization?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moody's

They care because they're partially responsible for the financial crisis so they're setting up the standard fall guy for any financial problem, the government. I'm not really sure what your second question has to do with anything but I'd say they most certainly aren't a credible organization, considering that they get paid by the same companies whose products they're supposed to be giving an objective rating to.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

countries that have universal healthcare spend less than we spend and get better care than we get... Why do you think that we would somehow end up spending more and getting less? It's not lke this is an untried idea. It's already in place all over the developed world and the doomsday econommic scenerios that you keep talking about simply do not occur.

Yeah bud, that why people put their fillings back with crazy glue in Britain because of the insane wait to see a government dentist.

Lets try this. Forget about the border with Mexico. Let block any Canadian seeking healthcare in America and see how that works?

[DosEquis]

To me, that article would have more credibility if it just talked of a reduction in spending in general...or a spending plan in general.

I would say (what will be) a trillion dollars spent on Iraq, 500 billion a year in defense spending, and 350-400 billion a year in interest on our debt would have just as much influence toward a negative credit rating.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

To me, that article would have more credibility if it just talked of a reduction in spending in general...or a spending plan in general.

I would say (what will be) a trillion dollars spent on Iraq, 500 billion a year in defense spending, and 350-400 billion a year in interest on our debt would have just as much influence toward a negative credit rating.

It makes sense that spending that will never go away is more detrimental than a temporary financial sink hole, like a war. They are speaking in the long run, not in the short term. The Iraq war is going away, the social programs are not.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It makes sense that spending that will never go away is more detrimental than a temporary financial sink hole, like a war. They are speaking in the long run, not in the short term. The Iraq war is going away, the social programs are not.

Universal healthcare is a step in the right direction toward sorting the social program mess out. Covering everybody would obviously reduce the costs associated with Medicare/Medicaid since you're not going to have to deal with individual enrollment, eligibility, etc.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by bheld

Universal healthcare is a step in the right direction toward sorting the social program mess out. Covering everybody would obviously reduce the costs associated with Medicare/Medicaid since you're not going to have to deal with individual enrollment, eligibility, etc.

Not a chance.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Not a chance.

I know it's hard to argue when fact and reason aren't on your side but if that happens it's okay to just not post. I won't feel bad if you just stop responding when you realize you're wrong.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by bheld

I know it's hard to argue when fact and reason aren't on your side but if that happens it's okay to just not post. I won't feel bad if you just stop responding when you realize you're wrong.

Here's what you're basically saying:

More government programs are what's needed to fix the problems government programs caused.

And you claim fact and reason aren't on my side.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Here's what you're basically saying:

More government programs are what's needed to fix the problems government programs caused.

And you claim fact and reason aren't on my side.

Because everyplace that these programs are implemented in spends less then we do?

[garbagemanlb]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Because everyplace that these programs are implemented in spends less then we do?

Too much logic here.